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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 4 2013, 07:11 PM   #271
Creepy Critter
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Re: STID realistic?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
^ That seemed to be the whole point of the episode, actually. Jameson's interpretation of the Prime Directive was the same as Kirk's, but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
That's an incomplete description of the premise of A Private Little War.
That's because it's not the premise of "A private little war." It's the premise of "Too Short a Season" which is a variation on that theme.
You said,
"...but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath."
Since your final sentence used the word therefore, after following an independent clause that discussed Kirk, it sounded to me that your last sentence was meant to apply to A Private Little War. My point is that I don't think it does, for the reasons I gave.
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Old November 4 2013, 08:06 PM   #272
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Re: STID realistic?

Pedantic as always, but I'll play along for now.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

That's an incomplete description of the premise of A Private Little War.
That's because it's not the premise of "A private little war." It's the premise of "Too Short a Season" which is a variation on that theme.
You said,
"...but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath."
Since your final sentence used the word therefore,
And also used the words "fridge horror." In this case, "Too Short a Season" is an expansion on "A Private Little War", addressing the fact that the Federation is at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.

So Jameson's suffering is his atonement for his part in the tragedy. Karnass' final line is his epitaph: "Your long night, and mine, are now over."
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Old November 4 2013, 08:40 PM   #273
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Re: STID realistic?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
In this case, "Too Short a Season" is an expansion on "A Private Little War", addressing the fact that the Federation is at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
Too Short a Season is not an expansion on A Private Little War.

It's similar in certain broad strokes, but there are key differences.

First of all, in Too Short a Season, unlike in A Private Little War, there's no Quadrant-wide adversary vying for control of the planet against the Federation.

Secondly, in Too Short a Season, Jameson supplied weapons to both sides on the planet. On the other hand, in A Private Little War, it was the Klingons who introduced weapons to one side, and the Federation who restored the balance in the only practical way.

Thirdly, the motive for interfering was completely different. Jameson interfered in the interest of rescuing Federation hostages. Kirk interfered in the interest of preventing the extermination of one of the native tribes at the hands of the other armed by the Klingons.

An additional key differences is that Jameson initially expected a short war, and based his actions of arming the natives on that belief, whereas Kirk and McCoy always expected a war that would go on for a very long time.

These differences all fundamentally alter who's responsible for the aftermath. In settling the question of whether and to what degree the Federation is responsible for the aftermath, there's no parallel between the two episodes at all.

Pedantic as always, but I'll play along for now.
Pedantic because I don't agree with you?
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Old November 4 2013, 09:10 PM   #274
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Re: STID realistic?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
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... it made Uhura a much less appealing character where she is not only bringing unnecessary baggage on an away mission but that she blatantly dismisses her captain with the "no, just give me one second!" As a captain, I would have snapped at her for such insubordination. It's the kind of behavior I expect from a typical summer blockbuster featuring a badly written romance subplot, not Star Trek.
Kirk had already confessed while on duty that Uhura's boyfriend was 'driving him nuts' (my pharaphrasing). So Kirk's setting the tone of personal interactions here.
The comparison rings false because when Kirk was expressing that it was in a turbolift, private between the two, before the Enterprise left space dock, not when they were deep in enemy territory.

In ST09 Kirk blatantly disrespected the acting Captain (Spock) and tried to fight him on one ocassion and then instigated a fight with the acting Captain by taunting him with his failure to save his Mother . All while on duty.
You can say the end justifies the means but Kirk has established the type of discipline on board.
I really hated that moment too. Just because Kirk did something like that in the previous film doesn't mean it's suddenly okay to vent out all your shit while flying in Klingon air space!

To make it clear, my problem with the scene was Uhura isn't just that she's whining about her relationship, it's that she's doing it during a very critical moment such as flying into Klingon air space. And as we see, once they get all caught up in their emotions, they suddenly get attacked by Klingons.
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Old November 4 2013, 09:34 PM   #275
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Re: STID realistic?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Too Short a Season is not an expansion on A Private Little War.

It's similar in certain broad strokes, but there are key differences.

First of all, in Too Short a Season, unlike in A Private Little War, there's no Quadrant-wide adversary vying for control of the planet against the Federation.

Secondly, in Too Short a Season, Jameson supplied weapons to both sides on the planet. On the other hand, in A Private Little War, it was the Klingons who introduced weapons to one side, and the Federation who restored the balance in the only practical way.

Thirdly, the motive for interfering was completely different. Jameson interfered in the interest of rescuing Federation hostages. Kirk interfered in the interest of preventing the extermination of one of the native tribes at the hands of the other armed by the Klingons.

An additional key differences is that Jameson initially expected a short war, and based his actions of arming the natives on that belief, whereas Kirk and McCoy always expected a war that would go on for a very long time.

These differences all fundamentally alter who's responsible for the aftermath. In settling the question of whether and to what degree the Federation is responsible for the aftermath, there's no parallel between the two episodes at all.
This is pretty much spot-on.
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Old November 4 2013, 09:43 PM   #276
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Re: STID realistic?

Is there any truth to the idea that it was originally supposed to feature Kirk trying to make up for what he did in "A Private Little War"? When you think of it, the whole thing with aging drug was probably introduced to feature Shatner with less make-up as the episode progresses, but somewhere along the line it was decided not to bring back Kirk (especially since Shatner was vocal of TNG) but remake the circumstances and the character ("Jameson" would be an obvious nod to Kirk) yet keep the drug that deages him anyway.

It's something that always intrigued me about "Too Short a Season".
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Old November 4 2013, 09:47 PM   #277
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Is there any truth to the idea that it was originally supposed to feature Kirk trying to make up for what he did in "A Private Little War"? When you think of it, the whole thing with aging drug was probably introduced to feature Shatner with less make-up as the episode progresses, but somewhere along the line it was decided not to bring back Kirk (especially since Shatner was vocal of TNG) but remake the circumstances and the character ("Jameson" would be an obvious nod to Kirk) yet keep the drug that deages him anyway.

It's something that always intrigued me about "Too Short a Season".
We had this discussion in another forum not too long ago and we couldn't find any evidence that Too Short a Season was suppose to be a sequel to A Private Little War.

Think the discussion was in the TNG forum.
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Old November 4 2013, 09:47 PM   #278
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote:
Is there any truth to the idea that it was originally supposed to feature Kirk trying to make up for what he did in "A Private Little War"
Who knows if somebody may have hoped for that at some point, but I don't think there's any reliable report to that effect. Certainly not the sort of thing I could see Shatner signing on for.
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Old November 4 2013, 09:55 PM   #279
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Re: STID realistic?

Yeah, still it's a very interesting "what if", something I would have liked to see. However, if that had ever actually happened, that might have hurt any tension for Kirk in the following TOS films.
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Old November 4 2013, 11:14 PM   #280
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Re: STID realistic?

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Is there any truth to the idea that it was originally supposed to feature Kirk trying to make up for what he did in "A Private Little War"? When you think of it, the whole thing with aging drug was probably introduced to feature Shatner with less make-up as the episode progresses, but somewhere along the line it was decided not to bring back Kirk (especially since Shatner was vocal of TNG) but remake the circumstances and the character ("Jameson" would be an obvious nod to Kirk) yet keep the drug that deages him anyway.

It's something that always intrigued me about "Too Short a Season".
We had this discussion in another forum not too long ago and we couldn't find any evidence that Too Short a Season was suppose to be a sequel to A Private Little War.

Think the discussion was in the TNG forum.
This one?
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Old November 4 2013, 11:37 PM   #281
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Re: STID realistic?

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
That's the one. Though I seem to be misremembering it a little. I thought some others had done some looking and couldn't find any evidence either.

Sucks getting old.
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Old November 5 2013, 04:45 AM   #282
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Re: STID realistic?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
In this case, "Too Short a Season" is an expansion on "A Private Little War", addressing the fact that the Federation is at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
Too Short a Season is not an expansion on A Private Little War.

It's similar in certain broad strokes, but there are key differences.
There are background details that set the stories a part. They take place on different planets, involving different captains and different factions involved. They take place in different centuries, and involved the exchange of different weapons.

IOW, they're about as different as "The Naked Time" and "The Naked Now."

Pedantic as always, but I'll play along for now.
Pedantic because I don't agree with you?
Pedantic because you're reduced to picking apart the minute details while the actual point flies right over your head.

It's like saying "Balance of Terror is nothing like 'The Enemy Below.' It doesn't take place in the ocean, nor during World War-II. The Enterprise is a cruiser, not a destroyer, and phasers are not physical projectiles like depth charges. Also, cloaking devices are unlike submarines because submarines can still fire while submerged, and the Romulans themselves are not at all similar to Nazis."
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Old November 5 2013, 04:48 AM   #283
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Re: STID realistic?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pedantic because you're reduced to picking apart the minute details while the actual point flies right over your head.
What actual point, Crazy Eddie?
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Old November 5 2013, 05:12 AM   #284
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Re: STID realistic?

The point is that both stories are about a commander who interfered in a war between natives by handing in more advanced weapons, with the consequences being that he may have made things worse than better. TOS ends on that down note, while TNG opens with a similar character feeling guilty over what he did and wanting to make up for it many years later. "Too Short a Season" is probably better described as a spiritual follow up and in that sense I kind of admire it for that, despite a couple of flaws like the crew being too relegated in the background and the youth drug being pointless, as the admiral could have just been portrayed as a more healthy old man from the start, maybe dying as a result of that away mission where he gets shot by the very weapons he gave.
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Old November 5 2013, 06:23 AM   #285
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Re: STID realistic?

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The point is that both stories are about a commander who interfered in a war between natives by handing in more advanced weapons
No kidding. But it's still not the case that the TNG episode expands upon the premise of the TOS episode, as Crazy Eddie claimed. On the contrary, while the TNG episode obviously has a core element of the TOS episode in common with it, that core element is removed from the factors that mitigated Federation culpability. If you see the episodes as essentially about the same thing, then I say you're missing an essential part of what A Private Little War is all about.

with the consequences being that he may have made things worse than better.
And this right here is what's wrong. Since what the Klingons do in A Private Little War is beyond Federation control, unless (as Hartzilla2007 pointed out upthread) the Federation wishes to declare open war on the Klingon Empire (assuming they even can, due to the Organians), the idea that the Federation made things worse for the natives in A Private Little War is a tenable notion only if you believe that it would have been better for the Klingon-allied natives to kill all the Hill People. This right here is why there's no parallel between the episodes, not at some pedantic superficial level, but at the level of what the ultimate point of the story is.

See, A Private Little War is the poster child for the episode that can be read not only as pro-US involvement in the Korean War but also pro-US involvement in Vietnam, no equivocating about it. Sure, Kirk and McCoy argue and realize the horror about to descend upon the whole planet, and both they and we realize that right away, not later at the icebox. But, it's not the Federation's fault; it's the Klingons'!

The TOS episode's premise of how the Cold War operated in the mid-20th century is shockingly naive, to be sure. This is why many fans don't like the episode, after all. But that doesn't change what the episode is. Also, regardless of whether the relationship was based on a misguided notion of how the Cold War played out, it's still possible for the episode to make sense in the context of the imaginary relationship between the Federation and the Klingons, in a way that doesn't really fairly apply to 20th century real world history.
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Last edited by Creepy Critter; November 5 2013 at 10:13 AM. Reason: missing word, punc
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