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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 4 2013, 03:46 AM   #256
Hartzilla2007
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Re: STID realistic?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
^ That seemed to be the whole point of the episode, actually. Jameson's interpretation of the Prime Directive was the same as Kirk's, but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
That's an incomplete description of the premise of A Private Little War. The Klingons were arming their side in order to attain dominance of the planet. If it weren't for Kirk arming the Hill People, the Klingon-allied tribes would have wiped the Hill People out. Kirk saved the Hill People from being the certain victims of genocide.

The Klingon Empire shares at least as much responsibility for the bloodshed on Neural as the Federation does, and actually more.
Not to mention that Kirk made it sound like their choices were either arming the Hill People or possible all out war with the Klingons. I mean in that case both choices suck and it looks like they went with the one they thought sucked the least.
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Old November 4 2013, 04:13 AM   #257
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Re: STID realistic?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
See? This is why people stopped taking your criticism seriously long time ago. Instead of arguing the facts, you retreat into passive-aggressive land
So I'm watching this and really wondering: can you in fact furnish an actual example of Timewalker "belittling the fans" of nuTrek? I haven't seen every single thing she's posted here but that in fact does look like a false complaint from what I have seen. I am of course hopeful that you don't equate persistently disagreeing with the fans, however wrong or poorly-formed you believe her opinion to be, to amount to "belittling" them?

This ain't the playground.
I'm also curious as to what this statement means to you. Do you believe it portrays the Board as a mature setting in which people should be expected to behave maturely? I'm fairly new here, so I'm just trying to understand.
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Old November 4 2013, 04:39 AM   #258
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Re: STID realistic?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
What "facts" have I ignored? I assume you are referring to Uhura's mild flirting with Spock - and that somehow becomes a valid reason for nuSpock engaging in PDA while on duty, and nuUhura acting like a petulant idiot (as in the argument in the shuttle when she, nuSpock, and nuKirk were going down to the Klingon planet) - "You insisted on saving those people - but you didn't care if you died! You're MY BOYFRIEND - what about MEEEEEE! You don't care about MEEEEEE!!!"

That's the sort of thing I'd expect to see in a sitcom or soap opera. I wouldn't expect it of a professional Starfleet officer.
I remember feeling that their "romance" in the 2009 film was very off putting, but eventually I thought I could roll with it and see where it goes. Where it went in STID is something I very much disliked and only reinforced my belief that this pairing doesn't work and should just be dropped immediately, especially since it made Uhura a much less appealing character where she is not only bringing unnecessary baggage on an away mission but that she blatantly dismisses her captain with the "no, just give me one second!" As a captain, I would have snapped at her for such insubordination. It's the kind of behavior I expect from a typical summer blockbuster featuring a badly written romance subplot, not Star Trek.

I have a feeling nothing will change for the next film, and that we might get Frat Boy Kirk despite the ending of STID, still get Emo Spock and her whiny girlfriend. Sulu and Chekov will have nothing to do other than say "coordinates set, sir", wasting the hired talent. Scotty improved though, so I hope they keep him relatively straightforward and less the comic relief. Bones, I just hope gets more to other than frown and spout out metaphors. Would be refreshing to see him relaxed like how Kelley was as the warm gentle country doctor.
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Old November 4 2013, 04:57 AM   #259
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: STID realistic?

It comes down to one's expectations of Trek. I remember the TOS where Kirk shagged his way across the galaxy, solved problems with fist fights, where Scotty started bar brawls over slurs against a spaceship and where he once tried to drink an invading alien under the table.

Some seem to latch onto "stack of books with legs" and mentally minimize Kirk's womanizing, who focus Scotty's repairing the ship and censor out the scenes that make Trek appear goofy to them - they want a serious space adventure. But those things IMO (and seemingly in Abrams' people's opinions too) added colour to the show and it's characters.
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Old November 4 2013, 05:19 AM   #260
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Re: STID realistic?

I always thought of the "stack of books with legs" thing to simply refer to the younger Kirk, not actually representing the Kirk we see in TOS. I actually like that idea better than Frat Boy Kirk. He's younger, more serious and determined, does everything by the book, scores the highest points on every test in the Academy's history. Then he takes on the Kobayashi Maru scenario and despite everything he's been trained to do and what he knows, he can't win the program. He tries it a second time, loses again. This is what ultimately breaks and molds him into the man he grows up to be. He changes the conditions just so he could have a chance (rather than just change the settings to the point he CAN'T lose as seen in nuTrek). This is what makes him learn to be more flexible, that sometimes not everything can be accomplished by the book. The beginning of a legend.

Would that kind of story have worked as a studio tentpole summer blockbuster? Maybe not, more likely a flashback episode on a TV series.
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Old November 4 2013, 11:10 AM   #261
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
... it made Uhura a much less appealing character where she is not only bringing unnecessary baggage on an away mission but that she blatantly dismisses her captain with the "no, just give me one second!" As a captain, I would have snapped at her for such insubordination. It's the kind of behavior I expect from a typical summer blockbuster featuring a badly written romance subplot, not Star Trek.
Kirk had already confessed while on duty that Uhura's boyfriend was 'driving him nuts' (my pharaphrasing). So Kirk's setting the tone of personal interactions here.

In ST09 Kirk blatantly disrespected the acting Captain (Spock) and tried to fight him on one ocassion and then instigated a fight with the acting Captain by taunting him with his failure to save his Mother . All while on duty.
You can say the end justifies the means but Kirk has established the type of discipline on board.

Uhura's insubordination seems minor in comparison.

I respect your right to dislike the romance though.
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Old November 4 2013, 11:28 AM   #262
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Re: STID realistic?

^Just because he did it first, that's no reason for her to continue.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
It comes down to one's expectations of Trek. I remember the TOS where Kirk shagged his way across the galaxy, solved problems with fist fights, where Scotty started bar brawls over slurs against a spaceship and where he once tried to drink an invading alien under the table.
Kirk's "shagging" consisted mostly of flirting. There are only 3 instances when we know for sure that he actually had sex with one of the guest characters: Miramanee (rather obvious, since she became pregnant), Deela, and Drusilla. If you add in the movies, there's Carol Marcus. In all other instances, there's no evidence that they actually had sex (although it would be reasonable to assume that he did with several of his old girlfriends, that was never shown nor mentioned by either character).
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Old November 4 2013, 01:46 PM   #263
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I remember feeling that their "romance" in the 2009 film was very off putting, but eventually I thought I could roll with it and see where it goes. Where it went in STID is something I very much disliked and only reinforced my belief that this pairing doesn't work and should just be dropped immediately, especially since it made Uhura a much less appealing character where she is not only bringing unnecessary baggage on an away mission but that she blatantly dismisses her captain with the "no, just give me one second!" As a captain, I would have snapped at her for such insubordination. It's the kind of behavior I expect from a typical summer blockbuster featuring a badly written romance subplot, not Star Trek.
I felt exactly the opposite. I liked that they mined TOS for material but that the romance in Star Trek 2009 simply didn't work. In Star Trek Into Darkness it felt much more like a real relationship.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I always thought of the "stack of books with legs" thing to simply refer to the younger Kirk, not actually representing the Kirk we see in TOS. I actually like that idea better than Frat Boy Kirk.
Thing is, everyone goes through their periods of immaturity as they grow up.

Kirk committed what would be considered a major crime today by hacking into the Starfleet Academy computers in order to alter the Kobayashi Maru scenario. Then he obviously went through a string of women at some point including Carol Marcus (there's some debate whether or not she's the "little blond lab technician" from Where No Man...), Ruth, Janet Wallace, Janice Lester and Areel Shaw. Kirk also had no issues with pushing or disrespecting people of higher authority than himself while in command of the Enterprise in several episodes of TOS.

Carol Marcus was right, "Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout."

Timewalker wrote: View Post

Look, you people seem to want me to like the movie, you'd prefer I stop posting negative things about it, so it would help achieve these things if you would help me understand the damn thing when I ask for explanations.
I don't care whether you like the Abramsverse movies or not. But if you're going to dislike them, at least dislike them for what's actually in the films not what you think is or isn't in them.
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Last edited by BillJ; November 4 2013 at 03:48 PM.
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Old November 4 2013, 04:46 PM   #264
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Re: STID realistic?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't care whether you like the Abramsverse movies or not.
You have to give it to him: if there's one thing BillJ is known for, it's indifference to whether somebody likes the Abramstrek movies.
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Old November 4 2013, 04:52 PM   #265
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Re: STID realistic?

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't care whether you like the Abramsverse movies or not.
You have to give it to him: if there's one thing BillJ is known for, it's indifference to whether somebody likes the Abramstrek movies.
I'm consistent.
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Old November 4 2013, 05:06 PM   #266
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Re: STID realistic?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
^Just because he did it first, that's no reason for her to continue.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
It comes down to one's expectations of Trek. I remember the TOS where Kirk shagged his way across the galaxy, solved problems with fist fights, where Scotty started bar brawls over slurs against a spaceship and where he once tried to drink an invading alien under the table.
Kirk's "shagging" consisted mostly of flirting. There are only 3 instances when we know for sure that he actually had sex with one of the guest characters: Miramanee (rather obvious, since she became pregnant), Deela, and Drusilla. If you add in the movies, there's Carol Marcus. In all other instances, there's no evidence that they actually had sex (although it would be reasonable to assume that he did with several of his old girlfriends, that was never shown nor mentioned by either character).
It was the 1960's, of course they didn't show as much as they can today. If we're gonna be nitpicky, we only saw nuKirk kissing Gaila while in bed together in their underwear. Ditto the cat girls in ID.

34-year-old PrimeKirk seduced the 19-year-old Lenore Karidian. Or was he just using her and the others for his own ends? Isn't that actually worse?
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Old November 4 2013, 05:19 PM   #267
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Re: STID realistic?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
It was the 1960's, of course they didn't show as much as they can today. If we're gonna be nitpicky, we only saw nuKirk kissing Gaila while in bed together in their underwear. Ditto the cat girls in ID.
Universal Screen Shorthand for sex you don't want to show is having the characters in bed together. It's very old; when TOS wanted to show Kirk had actually shagged somebody they used it too.

34-year-old PrimeKirk seduced the 19-year-old Lenore Karidian. Or was he just using her and the others for his own ends?
Yes, that's usually what he was doing. Skeevy? Totally, but in his defense... it was the Sixties. There were way skeevier dudes around than Kirk...
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Old November 4 2013, 05:25 PM   #268
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Re: STID realistic?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
34-year-old PrimeKirk seduced the 19-year-old Lenore Karidian. Or was he just using her and the others for his own ends? Isn't that actually worse?
Actually, at most, Kirk only thought he was seducing Lenore; she thought she was seducing him, to butter him up for the kill! Innocent she was not, in any sense of the word!
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Old November 4 2013, 05:26 PM   #269
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Re: STID realistic?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

Actually, at most, Kirk only thought he was seducing Lenore; she thought she was seducing him, to butter him up for the kill! Innocent she was not, in any sense of the word!
Very, very true.
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Old November 4 2013, 06:51 PM   #270
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Timewalker wrote: View Post
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You don't seem to have much familiarity with Star Trek either.
I'm familiar with the forms of Star Trek that matter to me. For the rest, I either ignore it or ask for explanations.
You're in here asking for explanations for things you have clearly ignored. That is a waste of your time and ours.

If you don't like STID, do us all a favor and ignore it. Don't half-watch it and then complain that it sucks just because you don't get it.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
^ That seemed to be the whole point of the episode, actually. Jameson's interpretation of the Prime Directive was the same as Kirk's, but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
That's an incomplete description of the premise of A Private Little War.
That's because it's not the premise of "A private little war." It's the premise of "Too Short a Season" which is a variation on that theme.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I remember feeling that their "romance" in the 2009 film was very off putting, but eventually I thought I could roll with it and see where it goes. Where it went in STID is something I very much disliked and only reinforced my belief that this pairing doesn't work and should just be dropped immediately, especially since it made Uhura a much less appealing character where she is not only bringing unnecessary baggage on an away mission but that she blatantly dismisses her captain with the "no, just give me one second!" As a captain, I would have snapped at her for such insubordination.
But that's not the dynamic they have at this point. They all trained together at the academy, they've worked together as long as they've known each other. They are friends as well as coworkers with Kirk being their superior in the working capacity.

That's the tempo of the scene, especially Kirk's "No! No, don't drag me into this! She is right, though." And even the earlier scene "A-Are you guys fighting? Oh my god, what is that even LIKE?"

I have a feeling nothing will change for the next film, and that we might get Frat Boy Kirk despite the ending of STID
Doubtful. I'd bet a month's pay he's going to pull some kind of insane high-flying space stunt in order to save carol's life.
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