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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 3 2013, 08:30 PM   #241
BillJ
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Re: STID realistic?

The Modern Trek version of the Prime Directive sucked.
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Old November 3 2013, 08:43 PM   #242
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Re: STID realistic?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)
Actually even post-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die, remember Homeward.
The lesson: Picard's a dick.
I've been telling people that for years...
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Old November 4 2013, 01:08 AM   #243
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Re: STID realistic?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
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Timewalker wrote: View Post
Shall we start with that ridiculous "lava rafting" thing nuSpock does in the beginning?
I think you've got the wrong film, mate.
A. NuSpock was flailing around on a piece of hardened lava in a river of magma. It wasn't an artificial raft, but he still used it as a raft.
Actually, he was STANDING on a piece of rock in a POOL of magma, a rock which does not appear to have been "floating" at all. More importantly, Spock -- unlike our Jedi friends -- was wearing a full body protective suit which in both background materials and the novelization are described as capable of protecting him from just about anything; when they beamed him back on board the Enterprise, that suit was on fire.

I never saw all of the Star Wars prequels, so I have no familiarity with that scene.
You don't seem to have much familiarity with Star Trek either.

I'm quite certain they never noticed any large displacements of water that should have happened when something that large gets dropped into a body of water that's basically next door.
Unless the Enterprise hit the water at three times the speed of sound, a million tons of displaced water would have no real effect except to raise their sea level about half a millimeter.

I'm also pretty sure they noticed the ship LEAVING the water.



Thank you for clarifying. Should a starship be able to remain intact with these kinds of gravitational stresses?
I should hope so.

It's inefficient, and looked ridiculous.
... is exactly what was going through Scotty's head as he was running through that hangar.

He complained about salt water. But when you have a situation of a volcano erupting next to a body of water, the water turns acidic.
Only if the volcanic vent is in physical contact with that body of water and conditions are conducive to the kinds of chemical reactions that would produce, say, sulfuric acid and posphoric acid. In a small body of water, these can reach relative high concentrations.

An ocean, however, is not a small body of water.
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Old November 4 2013, 01:19 AM   #244
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.
My impression is that Kirk's repeated interference in TOS (A Piece of the Action, The Apple, A Private Little War, etc) were later panned by historians as really bad ideas, either because everyone ended up getting killed in the end, or because the Federation ended up bogged down in intractable socio-political quagmires every single time.

Successive generations of Starfleet captains are now taught to believe that the unintended consequences of doing something can often be even worse than doing nothing.
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Old November 4 2013, 01:23 AM   #245
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Re: STID realistic?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.
My impression is that Kirk's repeated interference in TOS (A Piece of the Action, The Apple, A Private Little War, etc) were later panned by historians as really bad ideas, either because everyone ended up getting killed in the end, or because the Federation ended up bogged down in intractable socio-political quagmires every single time.

Successive generations of Starfleet captains are now taught to believe that the unintended consequences of doing something can often be even worse than doing nothing.
Going back to DC comics (again): That's pretty much how it played out. Most of Kirk's actions ended up coming back to bite him in the ass in some way or the other and he was generally seen as a problem child.
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Old November 4 2013, 01:33 AM   #246
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Re: STID realistic?

It always seemed to me that "Too Short a Season" was a subtle commentary on the likely legacy of a lot of TOS Kirk's actions. IIRC the situation "Admiral Jameson" was responsible for in that episode stemmed from a plot identical to "A Private Little War."
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Old November 4 2013, 02:06 AM   #247
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Re: STID realistic?

^ That seemed to be the whole point of the episode, actually. Jameson's interpretation of the Prime Directive was the same as Kirk's, but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
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Old November 4 2013, 02:17 AM   #248
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Re: STID realistic?

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
I don't think it did. Spock did not seem to think so, and I'd take Spock's word over Pike's. And I think Pike meant that it was not customary, not that it was not forbidden to save a world behind a veil. I can only hope the regulations they broke were about the danger to the first officer of the ship, and the show they gave the natives.
I think the fact that Kirk lied was what really set off Pike. Prime Kirk and Picard broke the PD on several occasions, but they accepted whatever consequences because they truly believed what they did was the right thing to do, so they took responsibility. nuKirk didn't do that, and I can understand that's something that would disappoint a lot of admirals, and as we learned from Picard the first duty of every officer is the truth.
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Old November 4 2013, 02:20 AM   #249
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
I don't think it did. Spock did not seem to think so, and I'd take Spock's word over Pike's. And I think Pike meant that it was not customary, not that it was not forbidden to save a world behind a veil. I can only hope the regulations they broke were about the danger to the first officer of the ship, and the show they gave the natives.
I think the fact that Kirk lied was what really set off Pike. Prime Kirk and Picard broke the PD on several occasions, but they accepted whatever consequences because they truly believed what they did was the right thing to do, so they took responsibility. nuKirk didn't do that, and I can understand that's something that would disappoint a lot of admirals, and as we learned from Picard the first duty of every officer is the truth.
He got busted down a rank for the lie, not for violating the Prime Directive. At least that's how it played to me when I watched the film.
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Old November 4 2013, 02:23 AM   #250
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Re: STID realistic?

Ovation wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
I don't think it did. Spock did not seem to think so, and I'd take Spock's word over Pike's. And I think Pike meant that it was not customary, not that it was not forbidden to save a world behind a veil. I can only hope the regulations they broke were about the danger to the first officer of the ship, and the show they gave the natives.
I think the fact that Kirk lied was what really set off Pike. Prime Kirk and Picard broke the PD on several occasions, but they accepted whatever consequences because they truly believed what they did was the right thing to do, so they took responsibility. nuKirk didn't do that, and I can understand that's something that would disappoint a lot of admirals, and as we learned from Picard the first duty of every officer is the truth.
He got busted down a rank for the lie, not for violating the Prime Directive. At least that's how it played to me when I watched the film.
That's what I said. Hence my referencing Prime Kirk and Picard not getting demoted, because they owned their decisions, so Starfleet probably looked at those occasions as "hey, Captain's prerogative, and we might have done the same thing".
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Old November 4 2013, 02:34 AM   #251
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Re: STID realistic?

BigJake wrote: View Post
It always seemed to me that "Too Short a Season" was a subtle commentary on the likely legacy of a lot of TOS Kirk's actions. IIRC the situation "Admiral Jameson" was responsible for in that episode stemmed from a plot identical to "A Private Little War."
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
^ That seemed to be the whole point of the episode, actually. Jameson's interpretation of the Prime Directive was the same as Kirk's, but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
Except aiding a war if an entirely different thing from saving people from extinction, something I don't recall Prime Kirk ever having to deal with. Picard in "Pen Pals" argues it's no different, that if we start doing one thing then we should start saving others from war, slavery, ect. He has a point, but a natural disaster that natives can't handle is very different from a situation where others have a choice. Picard even mentions that in "Too Short a Season" that the native general had a choice to call for peace, so it's as much his fault for keeping the war going as Jameson's for aiding it.
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Old November 4 2013, 02:59 AM   #252
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Re: STID realistic?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
When I bitch about something being stupid, illogical, silly, irrational, idiotic, and poorly done?

Yeah, I make pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. It seems more safe that way.

EtA: Also, after you spent months (years if we take ST09 into account) bitching about Abrams' movies and belittling people who liked them, calling your arguments "asking for help" is laughably disingenuous.
I never belittled the people who like the movies. I said the movies are dumb. I never said the fans were dumb.

And I don't appreciate being called a liar when I ask people to explain things I either didn't notice or didn't interpret correctly. It would be really nice if some of you would cease this "Timewalker doesn't like the Bestest Star Trek Movie Ever, therefore everything she says about everything is WRONG!!!" attitude.

It's my OPINION that the Abrams movies are bad. Unless I'm convinced otherwise (and I'm offering people here the chance to convince me otherwise, in a constructive, non-insulting way), my opinion will not change.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You don't seem to have much familiarity with Star Trek either.
I'm familiar with the forms of Star Trek that matter to me. For the rest, I either ignore it or ask for explanations.
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Old November 4 2013, 03:00 AM   #253
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Re: STID realistic?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
^ That seemed to be the whole point of the episode, actually. Jameson's interpretation of the Prime Directive was the same as Kirk's, but there's a bit of fridge horror as you realize that the logical consequence of Kirk arming the second faction means they'll be killing each other by the truckload from here on in. The Federation is therefore at least indirectly responsible for the aftermath.
That's an incomplete description of the premise of A Private Little War. The Klingons were arming their side in order to attain dominance of the planet. If it weren't for Kirk arming the Hill People, the Klingon-allied tribes would have wiped the Hill People out. Kirk saved the Hill People from being the certain victims of genocide.

The Klingon Empire shares at least as much responsibility for the bloodshed on Neural as the Federation does, and actually more.
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Old November 4 2013, 03:28 AM   #254
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Re: STID realistic?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
It would be really nice if some of you would cease this "Timewalker doesn't like the Bestest Star Trek Movie Ever, therefore everything she says about everything is WRONG!!!" attitude.
See? This is why people stopped taking your criticism seriously long time ago. Instead of arguing the facts, you retreat into passive-aggressive land, and shift the topic to intention, tone, or volume. This ain't the playground. Nobody is going to hold your hand and tell you everything is all right and your opinion is special and worthy. If you want it to be taken seriously, you have to defend it. With facts, reasons, and arguments. If you can, that it.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
It's my OPINION that the Abrams movies are bad. Unless I'm convinced otherwise (and I'm offering people here the chance to convince me otherwise, in a constructive, non-insulting way), my opinion will not change.
I have no interest in changing your opinion, especially since you dismiss everything that contrasts with your already-formed prejudice, and repeat the same old arguments again and again, as if nothing was ever said to you. My only interest here is in showing that your opinion is misguided and poorly thought, mostly for the education of others and my own amusement.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You don't seem to have much familiarity with Star Trek either.
I'm familiar with the forms of Star Trek that matter to me.
Not really, since you seem to ignore established facts in the old canon when then interfere with your ability to hate on the movie.
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Old November 4 2013, 03:45 AM   #255
Timewalker
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Re: STID realistic?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
It would be really nice if some of you would cease this "Timewalker doesn't like the Bestest Star Trek Movie Ever, therefore everything she says about everything is WRONG!!!" attitude.
See? This is why people stopped taking your criticism seriously long time ago. Instead of arguing the facts, you retreat into passive-aggressive land, and shift the topic to intention, tone, or perceived "rudeness". This ain't the playground. Nobody is going to hold your hand and tell you everything is all right and your opinion is special and worthy. If you want it to be taken seriously, you have to defend it. With facts, reasons, and arguments. If you can, that it.
Ah. As opposed to the people who said, "Prime Universe Star Trek is dead. Get over it."

So how about this: I've seen the Abrams movies. I think they're bad. I have yet to be convinced otherwise. Get over it.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
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You don't seem to have much familiarity with Star Trek either.
I'm familiar with the forms of Star Trek that matter to me.
Not really, since you seem to ignore established facts in the old canon when then interfere with your ability to hate on the movie.
And naturally, you know which forms of Star Trek matter to me. Every one of them, how, and why.

What "facts" have I ignored? I assume you are referring to Uhura's mild flirting with Spock - and that somehow becomes a valid reason for nuSpock engaging in PDA while on duty, and nuUhura acting like a petulant idiot (as in the argument in the shuttle when she, nuSpock, and nuKirk were going down to the Klingon planet) - "You insisted on saving those people - but you didn't care if you died! You're MY BOYFRIEND - what about MEEEEEE! You don't care about MEEEEEE!!!"

That's the sort of thing I'd expect to see in a sitcom or soap opera. I wouldn't expect it of a professional Starfleet officer.
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