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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 3 2013, 11:45 AM   #226
Creepy Critter
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Re: STID realistic?

Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)
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Old November 3 2013, 11:55 AM   #227
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Re: STID realistic?

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)
So now Data and Spock are more sensitive than pre-Pen Pals Picard? I feel sorry for him, an android and a Vulcan lecturing him on the merits of emotion.
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Old November 3 2013, 11:58 AM   #228
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Re: STID realistic?

Picard's pretty prim and proper.
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Old November 3 2013, 12:16 PM   #229
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Re: STID realistic?

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
You already did mention the explanation yourself:
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Were they just trying to draw the natives away from the temple?
Which is corroborated by the script:
Kirk: “Kirk to Shuttle One, the locals are out of the kill zone!”

In a world at that level of development, one small tribe can represent an entire culture that can shape the entire history of that world, so saving these few natives plays a role that's more than important. Similarly, having them witness the Enterprise and worship it would echo through the ages, which is what the final scene in the sequence was supposed to depict.
Ah, thank you. I missed that line.

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)
The only reason he agreed in that episode was because the little girl sent a message that was clearly meant for Data, and thus it was a direct request for help. If she hadn't sent the message (or if they hadn't received it), I think Picard would indeed have let them die.
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Old November 3 2013, 01:08 PM   #230
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Re: STID realistic?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ah, thank you. I missed that line.
You seem to be missing a lot of stuff in the movie. For one who wants everything spelled out in dialog, you don't seem to pay much attention to it.
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Old November 3 2013, 01:19 PM   #231
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Re: STID realistic?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ah, thank you. I missed that line.
You seem to be missing a lot of stuff in the movie. For one who wants everything spelled out in dialog, you don't seem to pay much attention to it.
Yep, it sure is nice to ask for help and have people throw rudeness back instead.

You have no idea what the circumstances were when I watched the movie. I was tired, and the volume control on my TV doesn't work reliably. Therefore, I missed some lines, or didn't hear them clearly. Or it's just barely possible that I was distracted by my cats or by whatever was going on in the building parking lot at the exact moment nuKirk uttered that line.

Do you hear every single line in a movie and understand it perfectly and have perfect recall days or weeks later when you're discussing it online?
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Old November 3 2013, 01:23 PM   #232
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Re: STID realistic?

When I bitch about something being stupid, illogical, silly, irrational, idiotic, and poorly done?

Yeah, I make pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. It seems more safe that way.

EtA: Also, after you spent months (years if we take ST09 into account) bitching about Abrams' movies and belittling people who liked them, calling your arguments "asking for help" is laughably disingenuous.
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Last edited by iguana_tonante; November 3 2013 at 03:14 PM.
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Old November 3 2013, 03:07 PM   #233
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Re: STID realistic?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
When I bitch about something being stupid, illogical, silly, irrational, idiotic, and poorly done?

Yeah, I make pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. It seems more safe that way.
Damn. Can't seem to find the upvote button on the board. This will have to do
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Old November 3 2013, 03:30 PM   #234
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Re: STID realistic?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Or maybe the scriptwriters just never thought about the potential problem.
And that would be because worrying about such a problem would have been a colossal waste of time (both for the characters in the story AND for the writers).
Or maybe the scriptwriters just never thought about it. There are scriptwriters who write SF who don't know anything about science, and one of the ideas proposed for TMP involved ancient Mayan gods (or Incan gods?). When somebody mused that the audience wouldn't go for that, the twit who proposed the idea said, "So what? They'll never know the difference."

So maybe someone can explain it to me, because in all the 3 times I saw this movie, I still don't get why nuSpock had to physically go into the volcano in the first place. Why didn't they just drop the bomb out of the shuttle and operate it remotely?
What does this have to do with the acidity of the water?

And missing a line once in a movie watching is common. Watching it three times and missing the exact same line three times is, well, unusual (at least if one is paying even passing attention to the film).
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Old November 3 2013, 04:09 PM   #235
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Re: STID realistic?

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)
Actually even post-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die, remember Homeward.
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Old November 3 2013, 04:13 PM   #236
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Re: STID realistic?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)
Actually even post-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die, remember Homeward.
The lesson: Picard's a dick.
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Old November 3 2013, 04:14 PM   #237
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Re: STID realistic?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)
Actually even post-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die, remember Homeward.
Good point.
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Old November 3 2013, 05:19 PM   #238
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Re: STID realistic?

Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.
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Old November 3 2013, 05:53 PM   #239
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.
Agreed.

I don't want to get going again in another PD debate, but as others have pointed out over the months, it seems Orci and Kurtzman introduced TNG PD sensibilities into the movie, and that's part of the problem. In TOS the "noninterference directive" stressed not getting involved in the natural cultural development of a planet, not total noninterference (essentially complete avoidance).
The stricter PD mandating avoidance seems to contradict Pike's statement in ST09 that part of Starfleet's mission was to be a "humanitarian armada." Letting people die when you can help is not very humanitarian (or moral, or civilized, or even realistic).
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Old November 3 2013, 08:24 PM   #240
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Re: STID realistic?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.
It was a bad message to send, that's for sure.

The point, I think mentioned in one of the arguments in the ready room, was that a civilization surviving or not surviving would rewrite the future of the entire region of space, hence making a choice about it would interfere with it. That interpretation was struck down in the same argument (by Troi or Crusher) with the argument that the choice not to do anything is as fateful to the region. And so is establishing a base in there (something not forbidden by any sane regulation), or establishing a diplomatic relationship of someone who is warp-capable. Not to mention that the effects of it are as random as the effects of randomly passing by. In short, a huge load of donkey crap. I wonder how many pre-warp civilizations would dropping the red matter in the supernova save, sounds like a massive prime directive violation to me!

Oh, and I hate the contrived justification for that attitude ENT: Dear Doctor decided to pick on this matter. Cruel, merciless Darwinian process was painted as a fair judge of who lives and who dies, because it somehow aligned itself with temporary injustice. Terrible.

Oh, and there's one more reason – if you save one world, then a second, then a third, it might end up being your duty to save worlds, and/or leave you with the (always bad) choice of who to save. Perhaps Kirk did so often, and other captains did it so little, that the seeming unfairness forced them to expand the PD. Bad decision.

Franklin wrote: View Post
I don't want to get going again in another PD debate, but as others have pointed out over the months, it seems Orci and Kurtzman introduced TNG PD sensibilities into the movie, and that's part of the problem.
I don't think it did. Spock did not seem to think so, and I'd take Spock's word over Pike's. And I think Pike meant that it was not customary, not that it was not forbidden to save a world behind a veil. I can only hope the regulations they broke were about the danger to the first officer of the ship, and the show they gave the natives.
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