RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,685
Posts: 5,430,504
Members: 24,830
Currently online: 362
Newest member: Old Man 51


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 30 2013, 07:33 PM   #91
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.
I didn't think the question about Trinneer's ability to play Archer was germane to the thread topic, that's why I didn't address it. I only brought up Olmos because he is an example of an actor who had no trouble with conflicts and contradictions in his character, something you stated was a problem for actors. I disagree with that contention.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 02:23 PM   #92
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

gblews wrote: View Post
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.
I didn't think the question about Trinneer's ability to play Archer was germane to the thread topic, that's why I didn't address it. I only brought up Olmos because he is an example of an actor who had no trouble with conflicts and contradictions in his character, something you stated was a problem for actors. I disagree with that contention.
No, the thread is not about who would make a better Archer. However, it was you who introduced the notion that other actors did or could do significantly better with the same material (as if the fact that the characters were written by the same people made the characters somehow similar in their complexity). That makes relevant the question about how the specific actors you mentioned would improve upon the most problematic material. And I'm sure Olmos would have greatly improved Enterprise had he been cast as the captain--if the role were written around his acting strengths. As a lifetime fan of Olmos, I can confidently assume Berman and Braga would never have cast him, especially since the bulk of his work reflected an interest in ethnicity rather than adventure. Moreover, it would have significantly undermined the hero story they wanted to tell. Would Olmos have delivered the same dialogue better than Bakula? Considering Olmos almost never talked in his best scenes--Adama wasn't particularly well known for exposition--he probably would have looked silly playing Archer as written in Broken Bow. On the other hand, had the character been rewritten to allow Olmos to bring more texture to the character, it would have been stellar. However, that would have required them to allow Olmos the space to do what he wanted with the character rather than overload it with dialogue, which is exactly what the writers did with Archer.
Bad Thoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 08:34 PM   #93
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.
I didn't think the question about Trinneer's ability to play Archer was germane to the thread topic, that's why I didn't address it. I only brought up Olmos because he is an example of an actor who had no trouble with conflicts and contradictions in his character, something you stated was a problem for actors. I disagree with that contention.
However, it was you who introduced the notion that other actors did or could do significantly better with the same material (as if the fact that the characters were written by the same people made the characters somehow similar in their complexity).
But when I brought up the other actors, the point I was trying to make was that just because Scott was unable to make his character consistently thrive with the way Archer was written, other actors were not so limited.

I wasn't saying that the characters were similar because they were writen by the same people. My point was that the writers wrote the other characters no better or worse than they wrote Archer. The difference was the actors playing the roles, not the writing.
Would Olmos have delivered the same dialogue better than Bakula? Considering Olmos almost never talked in his best scenes--Adama wasn't particularly well known for exposition--he probably would have looked silly playing Archer as written in Broken Bow.
We disagree. This is the crux of my issues with Scott's interpretation of Archer. I think Olmos would have given that same dialogue a gravitas that Scott just doesn't possess the ability to to present -- so would Nathan Fillion. In the hands of the right actor, bad dialogue may still read like "bad" dialogue to the naked eye, but might "play" much differently. Just because Scott could not prevent his character from falling victim to the buffoonish nature of some of the Archer dialogue, does not mean a "better" actor would have that same limitation.
On the other hand, had the character been rewritten to allow Olmos to bring more texture to the character, it would have been stellar.
I don't think Olmos is the kind of actor who has to have his character's dialogue tailored to fit within his acting limits in order to create a good characterization. He is better than that. What you are talking about here is a directorial/actor function rather than a writer function.
However, that would have required them to allow Olmos the space to do what he wanted with the character rather than overload it with dialogue, which is exactly what the writers did with Archer.
Finally, we agree on something -- I think. I wrote further upthread, (and have been writing about this issue for some time) that one of the problems with Scott's performance of Archer was that he was given way too much dialogue which he could not handle. With his lack of charisma and presence, they could maybe have manufactured some of this by having Scott simply remain somewhat quiet and then "finally" delivering his line. They could also have built up a bit of tension this way. I think Scott as "the quiet man" would have worked better.

Of course, this also goes back to my issue, that Scott is the kind of actor who requires tailored writing.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 10:05 PM   #94
Shaka Zulu
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bulawayo Military Krral
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

JINXED wrote: View Post
Seriously, what kind of jackass creates a lead character -- especially one who would be speaking on behalf of humanity during the series -- and present him as a bigot toward alien species in the opening scenes of the premiere?
The jackasses are the Vulcans, and not the writers; apparently, everybody forgot how Vulcans regarded humans on TOS, and so they also forgot how Spock and McCoy's rivalry started. I didn't, and so therefore, I had no problem with Enterprise in that regard.

Amazing how Enterprise got higher ratings in repeats on SyFy over BSG...
Shaka Zulu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1 2013, 01:23 AM   #95
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

gblews:

Look at the script for Strange New World, the second regular episode of Enterprise. Archer has just over 1200 words of dialogue. In Water, the second regular episode of BSG, Adama has around 560 words. That's writing. Moreover, you can compare the dialogue for yourself to see just how predetermined Bakula's acting choices were. If you like, you can read Archer's dialogue in Olmos voice: it would probably add 30 minutes to the episode.
Bad Thoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:22 AM   #96
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
gblews:

Look at the script for Strange New World, the second regular episode of Enterprise. Archer has just over 1200 words of dialogue. In Water, the second regular episode of BSG, Adama has around 560 words. That's writing.
I don't get your point, here. Can you clarify?
Moreover, you can compare the dialogue for yourself to see just how predetermined Bakula's acting choices were. If you like, you can read Archer's dialogue in Olmos voice: it would probably add 30 minutes to the episode.
Same here. Can you clarify? What are you trying to tell me?
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 03:06 AM   #97
BruntFCA
Commander
 
BruntFCA's Avatar
 
Location: A Mile High
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

One of my least favorite Archer moments was when after 3 seasons of him getting his ass kicked they have him win the one fight he should of lost against Shran. Instead of Shran losing an antennae the fight should have ended with Archer losing an eye.
__________________
"Well, I come from a long, long line of smartasses. Smartass is allergic to dumbass. Itís actually a physical allergy, as in youíre repulsed by dumbasses."
Josh Homme
BruntFCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 03:49 AM   #98
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

One thing that isn't always clear about Star Trek during the Berman years, is the written word on the page is sacrosanct. Actors were rarely allowed to rephrase the dialogue into something more natural for them, or easier to say. Often a writer or Berman himself would have to come down to approve it.
__________________
Curly: If at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' til you do succeed.
--Movie Maniacs (1936)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 05:00 AM   #99
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

^The standing order on BSG was, according to Sam Witwer, "Give us one as written, and then say whatever you want." It used a lot of improv. Of course, that's how a $100,000 model ship was destroyed.
Bad Thoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 05:33 AM   #100
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

BruntRIP wrote: View Post
One of my least favorite Archer moments was when after 3 seasons of him getting his ass kicked they have him win the one fight he should of lost against Shran. Instead of Shran losing an antennae the fight should have ended with Archer losing an eye.
His winning that fight actually made sense, though. He won by cunning and guile, not brute strength. Shran was going all out trying to kill Archer, because that's how the ushaan works and that's just the kind of guy Shran was. Archer found a loophole and did all he could to stay in the fight (I think it was pretty clear that Shran would have eventually killed Archer) until he could get into an advantageous position and disable Shran.
Skywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 05:47 AM   #101
BruntFCA
Commander
 
BruntFCA's Avatar
 
Location: A Mile High
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Jar Jar Binks wrote: View Post
BruntRIP wrote: View Post
One of my least favorite Archer moments was when after 3 seasons of him getting his ass kicked they have him win the one fight he should of lost against Shran. Instead of Shran losing an antennae the fight should have ended with Archer losing an eye.
His winning that fight actually made sense, though. He won by cunning and guile, not brute strength. Shran was going all out trying to kill Archer, because that's how the ushaan works and that's just the kind of guy Shran was. Archer found a loophole and did all he could to stay in the fight (I think it was pretty clear that Shran would have eventually killed Archer) until he could get into an advantageous position and disable Shran.
But the fact that a man who had never trained with that weapon was able to beat a man who had trained with it for his entire life was way beyond the suspension of disbelief IMO.
__________________
"Well, I come from a long, long line of smartasses. Smartass is allergic to dumbass. Itís actually a physical allergy, as in youíre repulsed by dumbasses."
Josh Homme
BruntFCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 05:48 AM   #102
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

I would have liked it better if Shran had -let- Archer do that to him. Knowing that Archer wouldn't kill him, but still satisfying his honor.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 05:53 AM   #103
BruntFCA
Commander
 
BruntFCA's Avatar
 
Location: A Mile High
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I would have liked it better if Shran had -let- Archer do that to him. Knowing that Archer wouldn't kill him, but still satisfying his honor.
That would have been pretty cool as well.
__________________
"Well, I come from a long, long line of smartasses. Smartass is allergic to dumbass. Itís actually a physical allergy, as in youíre repulsed by dumbasses."
Josh Homme
BruntFCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 05:57 AM   #104
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

What an incredibly stupid loophole for something billed as a fight to the death.
Bad Thoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3 2013, 06:56 AM   #105
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I would have liked it better if Shran had -let- Archer do that to him. Knowing that Archer wouldn't kill him, but still satisfying his honor.
Yeah, that could have been cool. Wouldn't have made Archer look very heroic, though. And Season Four was pretty much the season of Super-Archer.
Skywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.