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Old October 28 2013, 05:54 PM   #76
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

BigJake wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
The one true problem with Archer, is the writing. Far too often he is written in an overly simplistic way. He doesn't seem 'new' to space as was intended....he seems new to command, strategy and basic diplomacy.
This. A huge problem of ENT was that they wanted to trade on humanity's naivete and Sensawunda at this point in Trek "history"... but had no clear idea of how to do that or what the lines should be. I think this ultimately is why ENT's human characters feel much more tepid and uninteresting than they needed to feel (it's not just a problem with Archer, there was a tentativeness and confusion in writing all of them).

Take, for example, my personal #1 worst episode in the franchise, A Night in Sickbay. This trainwreck of an episode is 45mins of character assassination. Archer is depicted as an unstable, unreliable, irrational idiot. It severely damages the character in my eyes.
Yep. And ENT was plagued by a lot of that (although "A Night in Sickbay" was probably the most extreme example).

There were a lot of nice ideas behind ENT, as there were initially behind VOY. Unfortunately it's the execution that really makes or breaks a show. Some believe that great actors can rise above badly-written material; I don't think that's as easy to do as is popularly imagined. It's far easier for bad writing and conception to drag down what would otherwise be fine performances.

(Same goes for some of the Janeway criticism, I think. Yes, some of it is just sexism, and yes, obviously the character is conceived to be a competent manager put in an impossible corner and forced to Make the Tough Decisions. But if the writing doesn't really sell the circumstances or the decisions, there's only so much the actors can do.)
Playing the sexist card with Janeway is just petty at best and an attempt to shift the subject away from Janeway's character flaws. There's a lot of truth that more often than not the person who's pointing the finger is trying to draw attention away from something else.

Of course by that logic, I guess I'm bigoted against all white males too since I'm critical of Archer's stupidity too.
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Old October 28 2013, 06:29 PM   #77
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

RandyS wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
... have the character of Trip be the Captain of the Enterprise ...
No.
Yes.
No.
Yes !!!!

Umm.....No.
Okay, why not? Enterprise was on the air when I was in High School, Trip was the single most popular character with that age group, my friends in their twenties felt the same way. What demographic did Archer bring to the table?

Trip was everything Archer wasn't, he was (usually) calm, confindent, laid back, smooth. He was comfortable in his own skin, which is somethong that Archer very obviously wasn't.

People naturally liked Trip.

He was a southern gentleman (with the sexy accent that went with it).

He got the women, even the resident Vulcan chick.



He played the harmonica.
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Old October 28 2013, 07:20 PM   #78
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
RandyS wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
... have the character of Trip be the Captain of the Enterprise ...
No.
Yes.
No.
Yes !!!!

Umm.....No.
Okay, why not? Enterprise was on the air when I was in High School, Trip was the single most popular character with that age group, my friends in their twenties felt the same way. What demographic did Archer bring to the table?

Trip was everything Archer wasn't, he was (usually) calm, confindent, laid back, smooth. He was comfortable in his own skin, which is somethong that Archer very obviously wasn't.

People naturally liked Trip.

He was a southern gentleman (with the sexy accent that went with it).

He got the women, even the resident Vulcan chick.



He played the harmonica.
Well, if you're going to bring age difference into it, I was in high school when TNG started. I was 31 when ENTERPRISE started, and always found Trip to be an unlikeable jackass, who irritated the hell out of me just by being onscreen.

Plus his loudmouth bigotry got on my nerves.

Reed was far more likeable and was far moreeasy to relate to in my opinion. He should have been the third guy in Archer's trio. Trip should have been keep in the background.
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Old October 28 2013, 07:44 PM   #79
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

I think there is a great deal of revisionist history going on. In the first two seasons, you would very often hear Trip being referred to as a hick (with criticisms of his attitude and his accent). As the series went on, and the writers more clearly defined his character (as opposed to generic character traits), and with the added emotional investment of the Shipper Wars, Trip eventually emerged as a fan favorite. (It's one of the reasons why TATV is so angry-making: the TATV-Trip didn't have any of the growth that Seasons-3-and-4-Trip demonstrated.) But his early incarnation was sometimes as superficially written as Archer's was, and he was not universally well-liked at the beginning of the series, either.

Regardless of which character is your personal fave, it's natural to look back more fondly to the earlier episodes and see the missteps as part of the organic character growth, rather than as flaws in the character or performance. Some see a believable character arc for Archer, other see the same for Trip.
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Old October 28 2013, 08:50 PM   #80
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Playing the sexist card with Janeway is just petty at best and an attempt to shift the subject away from Janeway's character flaws.
I'd say there are a couple of flaws with that contention, one of them being that the bulk of that paragraph you're replying to is about Janeway's character flaws regardless of mentioning sexism. But I don't want to threadjack this into Janeway conversation and you can bracket out the mention of sexism if you like, it's peripheral to the main point.
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Old October 28 2013, 09:09 PM   #81
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

BigJake wrote: View Post
GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Playing the sexist card with Janeway is just petty at best and an attempt to shift the subject away from Janeway's character flaws.
I'd say there are a couple of flaws with that contention, one of them being that the bulk of that paragraph you're replying to is about Janeway's character flaws regardless of mentioning sexism. But I don't want to threadjack this into Janeway conversation and you can bracket out the mention of sexism if you like, it's peripheral to the main point.
I'd say the flaw was you bringing it up to begin with. It's a faulty conclusion and diminishes yourself and your argument.
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Old October 28 2013, 09:34 PM   #82
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

I've been watching "Anomaly" over the past week, while going through the episodes in sequence for reviews, and Archer really becomes a more determined figure compared to his happy-go-lucky guy in the first two seasons. The character really begins to change now that he doesn't have Starfleet propping him up anymore. It's more of a change in how Archer is written than Bakula's performance. But I still think some of Scott's best work were those little things he'd invent with silent reactions, like when Malcolm's bemoaning the need for Epsom salts to soak his aching feet.
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Old October 28 2013, 09:50 PM   #83
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I'd say the flaw was you bringing it up to begin with.
Well, if you're really keen to have an argument about it you can certainly start up another thread for that purpose.
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Old October 28 2013, 10:07 PM   #84
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

BigJake wrote: View Post
GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I'd say the flaw was you bringing it up to begin with.
Well, if you're really keen to have an argument about it you can certainly start up another thread for that purpose.
You threw out the questionable comment of sexism, sir. But keep pointing that finger.
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Old October 28 2013, 10:18 PM   #85
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
You threw out the questionable comment of sexism, sir. But keep pointing that finger.
Um, no the comment wasn't "questionable" at all and yes, I'm actually really saying that if you want to have an argument about it, I will. Just not on this thread. I'm all for arguments, love 'em to pieces, I just don't want to threadjack. If it's important enough to you to start a new thread and hash it out in detail, I will go to that thread and we will do that.

Do you want do that? It's not a rhetorical question. I'm asking you.
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Old October 29 2013, 02:41 PM   #86
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Feel free to continue your Janeway conversation in another thread (preferably in the VOY forum), or between yourselves in PM. But that's the end of it here. Thanks.
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Old October 29 2013, 08:22 PM   #87
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Yanks wrote: View Post
[
I think it's the responsibility of the writers to write for the actors they have. They knew what they had, and Scott in his element is very good I think.
No, I don't think so. Some producers might choose to do that but it isn't etched in stone that they have to. In retrospect it would have been better fo Ent if they had written Archer in a way that would have been easier for for Scott to play. But looking back even further, if they had no desire to ever "customize" Archer, then Scott probably should never have been cast in the first place.
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Having a character that lacked the complex backstory and purpose of Archer did not put Trinneer into a disadventageous situation. It helps an actor to have the room to put their own input into the character, to actually contribute to the process of characterization, as well as to let the character grow organically as stories evolve. That's not to say that Trip was uninteresting, but he had space to evolve and be himself. Too much was predetermined about Archer, and worse, he never was allowed to just be himself. He had to represent 100 years of disappointments that were not his own.
You're saying that our knowing too much about Archer somehow kept Scott from making Archer as good a character as Trinneer made Trip? Please explain. Just because we know a lot about a character doesn't keep an actor from making the most of the role.
Now, we've seen Bakula succeed in a roll in which he had much more leeway. On Quantum Leap, his character was forced to adapt to new situations and new personalities. He kept his moral core, but Beckett was never completely himself. That situation is much more analogous to Trip than to Archer. On the other hand, I've never seen Trinneer take on a roll as complex as Archer.
Please keep in mind that my argument isn't tthat Scott is not a good actor (not saying he is, or isn't). My point is that he was wrong for Archer.
Like Yanks writes, there are some things that Bakula doesn't do well. Archer was indignant a lot of the time. Bakula doesn't do self-centered very well--no one will mistaken him with Tom Cruise--so often he appeared petty.
Add comedic acting to the list. Scott had lots of trouble when Archer was supposed to be amusing. The weird scene in Babel in the mess hall with Trip; that was supposed to be funny. The trip to the fast food joint in Carpenter Street (an episode I personally love) could have been much funnier with a different actor but fell flat, the sick bay scene with Archer, Trip, and Phlox, in Bound, and pretty much all of his scenes in ANiS. When I wrote the thing about Nathan Fillion as Archer, I was thinking of ANiS in particular. With Fillion, that episode would not get the amount of derision from the fans as it currently receives.
bluedana wrote: View Post
I think there is a great deal of revisionist history going on. In the first two seasons, you would very often hear Trip being referred to as a hick (with criticisms of his attitude and his accent). As the series went on, and the writers more clearly defined his character (as opposed to generic character traits), and with the added emotional investment of the Shipper Wars, Trip eventually emerged as a fan favorite. (It's one of the reasons why TATV is so angry-making: the TATV-Trip didn't have any of the growth that Seasons-3-and-4-Trip demonstrated.) But his early incarnation was sometimes as superficially written as Archer's was, and he was not universally well-liked at the beginning of the series, either.
What revisionist history? After season 1, Trip was most fans favorite character by far. That surprised me because at the time, I was one of the ones who didn't like him. But as time went on, he grew on me. But for most fans, from what I recall here and on other Trek sites back then, he was the favorite character practically from the start.

As for the shipper wars, I really think that if Scott had handled Archer better, there may not have been the animosity there was. Lets put a much more capable actor in the role of Archer, again, like Nathan Fillion, and the battle between the T/Ters and ATPers cuts way down or ends, IMO.
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Old October 29 2013, 11:17 PM   #88
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

gblews wrote: View Post
You're saying that our knowing too much about Archer somehow kept Scott from making Archer as good a character as Trinneer made Trip? Please explain. Just because we know a lot about a character doesn't keep an actor from making the most of the role.
No, I'm not.

Having numerous complex, often conflicting, motivations hampers the ability of the actor to make decisions about portraying a character. The more demands placed on the actor, the more likely the performance will be unsatisfactory. That says nothing about the specific complexities of the Archer character, his family history with the Vulcans and the disappointments of his father, his frustration with the hostility he encounters in space, the distrust he receives from his own commanders, etc.

However, if you think that a change of actor would make all the difference, tell us how well you think Connor Trinneer would do delivering Archer's most problematic scenes? How would he look expressing Archer's opinions about the Vulcans (what most posters here call Archer's racism)? How would he look better telling T'Pol he wanted to knock her on her ass? How charming would he be hemming and hawing about the Vulcan HC with Admiral Forrest on subspace? How about surrendering to Phlox over the treatment of the Valakians? Would he be more likable stealing the warp core in Xindi space?
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Old October 29 2013, 11:50 PM   #89
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
You're saying that our knowing too much about Archer somehow kept Scott from making Archer as good a character as Trinneer made Trip? Please explain. Just because we know a lot about a character doesn't keep an actor from making the most of the role.
No, I'm not.

Having numerous complex, often conflicting, motivations hampers the ability of the actor to make decisions about portraying a character. The more demands placed on the actor, the more likely the performance will be unsatisfactory.
No, this is not true at all. Look at Edward James Olmos' Adama (if you're familiar with BSG). That character had way more conflicting motivations than Archer. It enhanced his performance. Most actors feel that the more conflicting things going on with the character, the better the role. Olmos is another actor who I've imagined as Archer. I used to compare the two quite a bit when BSG and Ent were in production. Actors want demanding roles where their character is pulled in several different directions at the same time. That is what creates great drama.

If you're talking about the often brought up week to week character changes to Archer, I say again, a better actor might not have liked the changes but would have still been able to credibly drag his character through those changes without sacrificing Archer's dignity (well, too much of his dignity) and audience respect.

Actors sometimes go on auditions and may several completly different characters in the same day or several different versions of the same character in one audition. Why would a professional actor not be able to handle week to week changes in his character's personality?
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Old October 30 2013, 01:26 AM   #90
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

gblews wrote: View Post
No, this is not true at all. Look at Edward James Olmos' Adama (if you're familiar with BSG). That character had way more conflicting motivations than Archer. It enhanced his performance. Most actors feel that the more conflicting things going on with the character, the better the role. Olmos is another actor who I've imagined as Archer. I used to compare the two quite a bit when BSG and Ent were in production. Actors want demanding roles where their character is pulled in several different directions at the same time. That is what creates great drama.

If you're talking about the often brought up week to week character changes to Archer, I say again, a better actor might not have liked the changes but would have still been able to credibly drag his character through those changes without sacrificing Archer's dignity (well, too much of his dignity) and audience respect.

Actors sometimes go on auditions and may several completly different characters in the same day or several different versions of the same character in one audition. Why would a professional actor not be able to handle week to week changes in his character's personality?
You need not sell me on Olmos' abilities. Mijo did more acting in a coma that the rest of the BSG cast. Bakula and Trinneer can't hold a candle to Olmos.

However, his abilities are not germane to the question of Trinneer's ability to play the role of Archer as written.
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