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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old November 15 2013, 07:14 PM   #136
Ovation
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Noddy wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post


It's really, really dark and conspiracy theory-ish. Pretty cool for Trek.
What, and we're supposed to believe that despite these MASSIVE cataclysmic events, after the Wars were over, things just went back to normal, with the rest of history up to the present happening more or less as normal? 9/11 and the War on Terror still happened? The Beastie Boys still happened? No way!
Well, in the first place, no version of Star Trek is the future of "our timeline". I have never assumed that the past of Star Trek was my present (even as the six year old I was when I first started watching it). As someone else pointed out recently in some thread around here, different laws of physics, a different kind understanding of biology, historical events that have never happened--these are all parts of Star Trek's past that require it to be in an alternate universe anyway, from the get go. As such, any deviation from our own "timeline" is perfectly acceptable, in principle. As to the specific story in the comics, remember who is telling the story. To what degree are we to simply accept everything Khan says at the trial depicted in the story?
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Old November 15 2013, 07:21 PM   #137
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Records of that era do still exist in the 23rd century, so his prosecutors would be able to find out if he was telling the truth or not. You couldn't just obliterate an entire major city and have no one know about it generations later.
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Old November 15 2013, 08:30 PM   #138
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Ovation wrote: View Post
As someone else pointed out recently in some thread around here, different laws of physics, a different kind understanding of biology, historical events that have never happened--these are all parts of Star Trek's past that require it to be in an alternate universe anyway, from the get go. As such, any deviation from our own "timeline" is perfectly acceptable, in principle.
But it's more a matter of what Trek itself has established about its own history. The later shows have established that the late '90s and early '00s went pretty much the same way there that they did here; for instance, in ENT: "Storm Front, Part II" we saw footage of the 9/11 attack as history was resetting itself.
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Old November 15 2013, 11:06 PM   #139
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Doesn't making Trek entirely an "alternate timeline" thing kind of detract from the point of the show which was to show humanity's potential? If it isn't OUR future, that kind of makes the whole thing feel a bit hollow.
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Old November 15 2013, 11:18 PM   #140
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Doesn't making Trek entirely an "alternate timeline" thing kind of detract from the point of the show which was to show humanity's potential? If it isn't OUR future, that kind of makes the whole thing feel a bit hollow.
Why? So many things that were presented in "our time" have come and gone without actually happening. That ship sailed a long time ago.

This may only (quite likely) apply to me, but I treat Trek the way I treat Bond. If multiple instalments seem to fit together, then they fit together. If they contradict a previous or future instalment in a significant fashion, then it's just a different creative take on the character/universe. Solves a lot of problems and makes enjoying the various iterations far less stressful. YMMV
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Old November 15 2013, 11:27 PM   #141
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Doesn't making Trek entirely an "alternate timeline" thing kind of detract from the point of the show which was to show humanity's potential? If it isn't OUR future, that kind of makes the whole thing feel a bit hollow.
Except any viewer who is actually sane and understands the difference between fiction and reality would already know that it's not our real future. It's a bloomin' TV show with actors on sets in front of cameras. Everyone knows that. So obviously it's not meant to be a literal proposal for what the future could be. It's an aspirational symbol, a representation of what a better future could look like, a model for the kind of future we can potentially build. It's not about "This event will happen on this date in exactly this way" -- it's about "This is the way human beings could live and treat each other in a better world, if we work hard enough to make such a world."
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Old November 16 2013, 12:00 AM   #142
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Well sure, it's not a literal proposal, but the more you move the "present" away from reality, the less aspirational it seems and the more fantastical.

If Star Trek's 1990s were much much different from our own, at some point I think it starts to get into the realm of "well maybe that's why things are better in the future" and less "we can work hard and work toward a future like that".
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Old November 16 2013, 12:17 AM   #143
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Well sure, it's not a literal proposal, but the more you move the "present" away from reality, the less aspirational it seems and the more fantastical.

If Star Trek's 1990s were much much different from our own, at some point I think it starts to get into the realm of "well maybe that's why things are better in the future" and less "we can work hard and work toward a future like that".
But Star Trek's 1960s were already "much different from our own" (unless you think there were sub-orbital nuclear platforms then, or that sometime between 1968 and 2267/85, nostalgia for the Soviet Union would be so strong as to re-baptize St. Petersburg into Leningrad, among other things). And I don't recall anything remotely resembling the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s (whichever version of them you want to choose).
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Old November 16 2013, 12:23 AM   #144
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Re: Khan #1 Review

See, that's the problem when they keep getting into the past of a 50 year old TV show. On screen continuity violates real world continuity ever since, especially when it comes to Khan and the Eugenic Wars.

And by 2063, you can completely forget it.

Just keep moving forward.
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Old November 16 2013, 12:30 AM   #145
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Side note: There is a model of the Botany Bay (with its booster rockets) on Rain Robinson's desk in this episode.
And a model of... a Talosian.

It's all a Pike illusion!
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Old November 16 2013, 12:45 AM   #146
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Ovation wrote: View Post
And I don't recall anything remotely resembling the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s .
You probably missed the grand opening of the Millennium Gate too, didn't you?
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Old November 16 2013, 02:31 AM   #147
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Re: Khan #1 Review

beamMe wrote: View Post
You probably missed the grand opening of the Millennium Gate too, didn't you?
And the launches of Voyagers 3, 4, 5 and 6.
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Old November 17 2013, 04:32 AM   #148
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Well sure, it's not a literal proposal, but the more you move the "present" away from reality, the less aspirational it seems and the more fantastical.

If Star Trek's 1990s were much much different from our own, at some point I think it starts to get into the realm of "well maybe that's why things are better in the future" and less "we can work hard and work toward a future like that".
But generally, Trek's late 20th and early 21st centuries seem to be worse then ours. So if the Trek humans can still achieve the future we've seen, that can still be inspirational for us. Something like: "they had a rougher start and look what they accomplished; we can work hard and work toward a future like that too!"

Granted, Trek's space program in our era did seem to be more advanced than our reality. All those extra wars and conflicts must have really spurred them forward in that area...
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Old November 17 2013, 01:07 PM   #149
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Re: Khan #1 Review

I'm of the opinion that in the Trekverse, the present day and the recent past unfolded pretty much as they did in reality. So they've had stuff like 9/11, the War on Terror, the global economic recession, etc, etc. The question is, if this comic's depiction of the Eugenics Wars in the 90's is going to be as huge and cataclysmic as it looks like it will, extending into the very heart of Western civilization, how on earth can history between then and now still have happened the way we experienced it?
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Old November 24 2013, 07:24 PM   #150
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Re: Khan #1 Review

The thing is, in real world history, 9/11 is the single worst act of terrorism ever committed on US soil. If an entire city got a nuke dropped on it nine years earlier, would 9/11 have had the same effect it did? And with Washington nuked, that would be the White House out of the picture.
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