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Old October 25 2013, 08:13 PM   #1
Harbinger
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Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

The Borg were encountered in the past by Lily in First Contact and later by Archer and crew in Enterprise. How come the Federation never knew about the Borg prior to Picard's encounter? Wouldn't have Cochrane and/or Lily made such a significant recording of this? What about Archer and Crew.

And not only that, but when the Vulcans made First Contact, most of the Earth was still assimilated, right? Unless I'm not remembering correctly and there was another point in the movie Picard & crew time traveled, the Vulcans would have obviously seen (scanned) this and they would have known about the Borg as well. Not only that, but as a bonus the Vulcans probably wouldn't have even made First Contact if they'd seen a world overrun by Borg or even dead Borg after the Queen's death.

Also, if the Borg just all dropped dead on Earth after the Queen's death, there would be so much physical evidence confirming their existence. I highly doubt Section 31 could cover all that up if at some point we could assume that's why we didn't know about them.
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Old October 25 2013, 08:29 PM   #2
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

Picard & co. introduced the Borg to the earlier timelines. We saw the timeline before they were introduced earlier...time travel is fun...
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Old October 25 2013, 08:37 PM   #3
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

They were unknown to Picard and the Enterprise-D crew, not the Federation. The Hansens were studying them 20 years earlier ("Dark Frontier"). And they probably have detailed files from "Regeneration" in 2151.

Also, Earth wasn't assimilated in First Contact. Picard and co. wen't back to undo/prevent that from happening.
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Old October 25 2013, 08:41 PM   #4
BillJ
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

Harbinger wrote: View Post
The Borg were encountered in the past by Lily in First Contact and later by Archer and crew in Enterprise. How come the Federation never knew about the Borg prior to Picard's encounter? Wouldn't have Cochrane and/or Lily made such a significant recording of this? What about Archer and Crew.
I think Starfleet and the United Earth government buried the evidence. Nothing would kill a fledgling space program quicker than word of cybernetic space zombies getting around.
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Old October 25 2013, 09:28 PM   #5
Melakon
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

Trying to unravel the paradoxes created by retconned events that supposedly took place prior to TOS is a nearly impossible task.
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Old October 25 2013, 09:32 PM   #6
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

I can give Cochrane a pass for not recording anything about the Borg given the time travel aspect of things but Archer? Nope. Record keeping was never his strong point anyways given his ship was taken over by the Ferengi and they were still an unknown too. Sure the name wasn't there, but the aliens with the big years and buttheads would've been a relevant enough description.
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Old October 25 2013, 09:57 PM   #7
Harbinger
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
They were unknown to Picard and the Enterprise-D crew, not the Federation. The Hansens were studying them 20 years earlier ("Dark Frontier"). And they probably have detailed files from "Regeneration" in 2151.

Also, Earth wasn't assimilated in First Contact. Picard and co. wen't back to undo/prevent that from happening.
That's what I couldn't remember. I mean they arrived when a good deal of the Earth was assimilated and as for what I can remember, they never went further back in time to undo it. I then assume killing the Queen pretty much shut down the Borg on Earth. There were Borg left on Earth (whether dead or alive) after First Contact otherwise Archer wouldn't have discovered one of them, right?

Gonna admit I'm a bit confused and it's been awhile since I seen FC, but I just recall Picard and co. leaving Earth after saving what was left of it from the Borg right before first contact with the Vulcans. That said, there's so much evidence in regards to the Borg invasion of that era that it would be hard to cover up, correct?
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Old October 25 2013, 10:34 PM   #8
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

The Borg sphere started going back in time, the crew then got a glimpse of what Earth would look like in the 24th century if they did not follow it back in time, so they followed it back in time, and arrived right after the Borg. They destroyed the sphere but then some Borg got aboard their ship. That's my recollection, at least. The actual Borg incursion on Earth was rather small, remember Riker had no idea that the Borg had infiltrated Enterprise.

The Archer thing, that's just bad writing. Phlox cured assimilation in five minutes while being assimilated, for chrissake.
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Old October 25 2013, 10:47 PM   #9
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

^A cure which they made clear would only work from Phlox's people, since no other species could survive that much radiation. (I guess that means that, in the Into Darkness timeline, Phlox's cure plus a shot of Khan blood would work!)
Harbinger wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
They were unknown to Picard and the Enterprise-D crew, not the Federation. The Hansens were studying them 20 years earlier ("Dark Frontier"). And they probably have detailed files from "Regeneration" in 2151.

Also, Earth wasn't assimilated in First Contact. Picard and co. wen't back to undo/prevent that from happening.
That's what I couldn't remember. I mean they arrived when a good deal of the Earth was assimilated and as for what I can remember, they never went further back in time to undo it. I then assume killing the Queen pretty much shut down the Borg on Earth. There were Borg left on Earth (whether dead or alive) after First Contact otherwise Archer wouldn't have discovered one of them, right?

Gonna admit I'm a bit confused and it's been awhile since I seen FC, but I just recall Picard and co. leaving Earth after saving what was left of it from the Borg right before first contact with the Vulcans. That said, there's so much evidence in regards to the Borg invasion of that era that it would be hard to cover up, correct?
The only Borg stuff left on Earth was the wreckage of the sphere the Enterprise destroyed (found and revived a century later in "Regeneration"). The Enterprise was assimilated in the movie but the Borg just shot at Cochrane's missile base from orbit.
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Old October 25 2013, 10:56 PM   #10
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

Archer noted that Cochrane spoke of the Borg attack later in his life, but T'Pol dismissed it as the drunken ramblings of an old man.
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Old October 25 2013, 10:57 PM   #11
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I can give Cochrane a pass for not recording anything about the Borg given the time travel aspect of things but Archer? Nope. Record keeping was never his strong point anyways given his ship was taken over by the Ferengi and they were still an unknown too. Sure the name wasn't there, but the aliens with the big years and buttheads would've been a relevant enough description.
Depends on who's reading the description. You have two pieces of information out there: buttheaded alien and the name Ferengi. Only someone with access to both can make a connection. Remember in TNG while no one in the UFP/Starfleet had seen a Ferengi, they were well aware of them.

As for for the Borg. All Archer knows and reported was his ship was attacked by cyborgs. Until there is an attack by these same cyborgs and the name Borg is used its filed under "unnamed alien". The Hansens might have found a way to link the unnamed cyborgs to the Borg or they might be working with other information.
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Old October 25 2013, 11:22 PM   #12
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

trekker670 wrote: View Post
Picard & co. introduced the Borg to the earlier timelines. We saw the timeline before they were introduced earlier...time travel is fun...
This.

If you are looking for an in-universe explanations for the Hansens, I believe in the episode, Magnus Hansen says something to the effect of them being a myth or rumor and that they had been laughed for following them. Starfleet never have a great track record with finding out where their missing ships went, especially those with some supposed crazy scientists.
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Old October 25 2013, 11:48 PM   #13
Harbinger
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The Borg sphere started going back in time, the crew then got a glimpse of what Earth would look like in the 24th century if they did not follow it back in time, so they followed it back in time, and arrived right after the Borg. They destroyed the sphere but then some Borg got aboard their ship. That's my recollection, at least. The actual Borg incursion on Earth was rather small, remember Riker had no idea that the Borg had infiltrated Enterprise.
This explains a lot if you're right. I thought the brown, assimilated Earth we saw was the Earth they ended up but I figured that wouldn't make any sense and like you said, was just a glimpse of the Earth as they were traveling through time. I hope I can excuse my ignorance to a lack of remembering and/or understanding that scene.
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Old October 26 2013, 12:05 AM   #14
1001001
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

Harbinger wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The Borg sphere started going back in time, the crew then got a glimpse of what Earth would look like in the 24th century if they did not follow it back in time, so they followed it back in time, and arrived right after the Borg. They destroyed the sphere but then some Borg got aboard their ship. That's my recollection, at least. The actual Borg incursion on Earth was rather small, remember Riker had no idea that the Borg had infiltrated Enterprise.
This explains a lot if you're right. I thought the brown, assimilated Earth we saw was the Earth they ended up but I figured that wouldn't make any sense and like you said, was just a glimpse of the Earth as they were traveling through time. I hope I can excuse my ignorance to a lack of remembering and/or understanding that scene.
We're Trekkies, damnit!

There is no forgiveness for misremembering details!





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Old October 26 2013, 12:21 AM   #15
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Re: Why Were The Borg Unknown Prior To TNG?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Archer ... Record keeping was never his strong point anyways given his ship was taken over by the Ferengi and they were still an unknown too.
With Archer's record keeping, I wouldn't be too surprised if the people in the 24th century never heard of the Xindi either.

Archer also apparent never told anyone about the Romulan ships that could disappear.

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