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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old October 17 2013, 07:01 PM   #16
jimbotron
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
If Lal was such an important part in Data's life, why is there absolutely no mention of her here in Brothers? By all accounts, Data should be telling Soong that he is a grandfather and that through Lal, he was able to create genuine emotions.
True, but then Soong also didn't mention that he recreated his wife as an android who was capable of emotion, aging, emitting human life signs, etc.
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Old October 17 2013, 07:36 PM   #17
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

This is one of my personal favorite episodes so I'm little shocked by the review. To each their own but you're reaching a little bit on the "women in refrigerators" analogy.

I do agree with the issue with Picard. While the episode showed the metamorphosis of Picard's opinion to a more acceptable one at the end, the Measure of a Man did that already. It seemed out of place and not in character at the beginning. One would think Picard's initial reaction would be the one had later in the episode.

Still, l love this episode and remember exactly where I was when I watched it the first time. I vividly remembering realizing "Damn, I love this show!!!"
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Old October 18 2013, 12:47 AM   #18
Makarov
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

I agree it should've been mentioned in Brothers. But Picard lost an entire family in the Inner Light - far more traumatic and it's mentioned maybe a handful of times from then on.

If you watch Brothers before this episode then it's not really a problem. I never really watch TNG in order anyway, it only matters with major major things like Pulaski and Picard's Borg encounter, most major events are forgotten immediately by the next episode.
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Old October 18 2013, 01:54 PM   #19
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

jimbotron wrote: View Post
True, but then Soong also didn't mention that he recreated his wife as an android who was capable of emotion, aging, emitting human life signs, etc.
Not quite the same thing considering that episode was written much, much later on in the series where as Lal was created in the previous season.
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Old October 18 2013, 02:26 PM   #20
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Chensams wrote: View Post
To each their own but you're reaching a little bit on the "women in refrigerators" analogy.
The whole general consensus regarding women in refrigerators is that you kill a female character off for the benefit of the male character, and that is exactly what happened here. The reason why I have such strong feelings when it comes to this trope is that even in Season 3, TNG is still not a female friendly show. The only two main female characters are still labeled as the on and off love interest to the two main male characters, and the other female character that had a position on the bridge who wasn't romantically attached to a male character was killed off.... twice.

Speaking of Tasha,
Data: My thoughts are not for Tasha, but for myself. I keep thinking how empty it will feel without her presence. Did I miss the point?
Picard: No, you didn't, Data. You got it.
Lal's death is actually the second time a female character was killed off and Data got to grow because of it, so this trope is already a reoccurring theme. And if you think it gets better as the series goes on, you haven't been paying attention.
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Old October 20 2013, 06:19 PM   #21
matthunter
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Chensams wrote: View Post
To each their own but you're reaching a little bit on the "women in refrigerators" analogy.
The whole general consensus regarding women in refrigerators is that you kill a female character off for the benefit of the male character, and that is exactly what happened here. The reason why I have such strong feelings when it comes to this trope is that even in Season 3, TNG is still not a female friendly show. The only two main female characters are still labeled as the on and off love interest to the two main male characters, and the other female character that had a position on the bridge who wasn't romantically attached to a male character was killed off.... twice.

Speaking of Tasha,
Data: My thoughts are not for Tasha, but for myself. I keep thinking how empty it will feel without her presence. Did I miss the point?
Picard: No, you didn't, Data. You got it.
Lal's death is actually the second time a female character was killed off and Data got to grow because of it, so this trope is already a reoccurring theme. And if you think it gets better as the series goes on, you haven't been paying attention.
I still think you're reaching. The convention is often to have an opposite sex child when telling these stories. Troi had Ian in her "alien rape child" story and Seven had a male uber-Borg in a very similar story to The Offspring in VOY (offspring exceeds parent, then dies teaching them a valuable lesson).
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Old October 20 2013, 08:10 PM   #22
Makarov
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Come to think of it, it might have been interesting for Lal to have been male. I wonder how different the episode would be with a father/son relationship. The actress did a great job however.
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Old October 21 2013, 01:20 AM   #23
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I think The Offspring is a good episode but the attitude of the Admiral keeps it from being among the series best for me. The attitude of the Admiral contradicts the attitude of Starfleet for the rest of the series, and as OP mentioned treatment of Lal like a scientific curiosity owned by Starfleet contradicts Measure of a Man.
If you're interested, I have a link to a script of "The Offspring" with some extended dialogue between Haftel and Picard, which personally I would have liked to see. I have no idea whether it was filmed or just existed on paper (and was likely omitted for time), but it gives a broader context to his desire to separate Lal from Data and makes more sense.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
If Lal was such an important part in Data's life, why is there absolutely no mention of her here in Brothers? By all accounts, Data should be telling Soong that he is a grandfather and that through Lal, he was able to create genuine emotions.
Well, Data said in "Offspring" that he considered Lal's creation a necessity because he was the only functional Soong type android and her existence would ensure some part of him survived. But he never mentions Lore, and Haftel doesn't either even though his arguments for separation are based on whether Lal could develop in a dangerous direction (something which is more clear from the omitted lines). That Lal isn't mentioned in "Brothers" doesn't bother me because it isn't a huge necessity for that script.
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Old October 21 2013, 03:36 AM   #24
jimbotron
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Speaking of inconsistencies, don't forget "Clues". After Data is found to be lying about the cover-up, Picard reminds Data that he will likely be stripped down to his wires to figure out what's gone wrong, which Data acknowledges.

That flies in the face of MoaM establishing that Data isn't Starfleet's property.
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Old October 21 2013, 02:02 PM   #25
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

matthunter wrote: View Post
The convention is often to have an opposite sex child when telling these stories. Troi had Ian in her "alien rape child" story and Seven had a male uber-Borg in a very similar story to The Offspring in VOY (offspring exceeds parent, then dies teaching them a valuable lesson).
That's probably the first time I've heard someone associate the word "valuable" with an episode like The Child, one of the most poorly adapted and poorly executed episodes of TNG's entire run. The fact that Ian is male kind of contradicts itself anyways.
Pulaski: It's a male human, or in this case half-human half-Betazoid.
Riker: Exactly the same as Deanna.
Pulaski: In every way. In fact, there is nothing to indicate that there are any genetic patterns other than hers.
It's like they wrote the story for Ian to be a girl, but when that didn't work out and they could only get a male child actor, Maurice just said "Just change that one line from female to male. Do I have to think of everything?!?". Except they forgot to change the following dialogue to acknowledge the fact why Ian is male instead of female despite being the same as every.

Also, here's the difference between these "male children" dying when compared to Lal dying. Ian and that uber Borg willingly sacrificed themselves to save the day, where as Lal died simply because she malfunctioned. So going by the logic of what we've seen in Star Trek, male children are strong willed and brave, where as female children are absent minded, weak and will die at the slightest experience of fear.
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Old October 21 2013, 02:23 PM   #26
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Jeyl wrote: View Post


To make things even more awkward, Lal isn't even the first so-called life form that someone onboard the Enterprise has created without telling anyone. Remember the episode "Evolution" where Wesley created an advance race of sentient nanites and only told people about it after it started to become a big deal? Those little buggers not only threatened the Enterprise, they actually tried to MURDER someone. After Picard reached an understanding with them, he was more than happy to give them a planet of their own.
Accidently created sentient nanites, it's not like Wes planned to create setient nanites. Lal was a consious creation two slightly different scenarios. They tried to murder someone after he had murdered some of them, once again a slightly different sceanrio (yes two wrongs don't make a right).
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Old October 21 2013, 10:34 PM   #27
Nebusj
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
That's probably the first time I've heard someone associate the word "valuable" with an episode like The Child, one of the most poorly adapted and poorly executed episodes of TNG's entire run. The fact that Ian is male kind of contradicts itself anyways.
Pulaski: It's a male human, or in this case half-human half-Betazoid.
Riker: Exactly the same as Deanna.
Pulaski: In every way. In fact, there is nothing to indicate that there are any genetic patterns other than hers.
It's like they wrote the story for Ian to be a girl, but when that didn't work out and they could only get a male child actor, Maurice just said "Just change that one line from female to male. Do I have to think of everything?!?". Except they forgot to change the following dialogue to acknowledge the fact why Ian is male instead of female despite being the same as every.
Isn't that rather making the assumption that Betazed (or half-Betazed) sexual development must be primarily genetically determined, rather than environmentally (as quite a few species are)?

(And even if it is genetically determined, that's assuming Ian is meant to be Troi's clone rather than what one might get from --- assuming Betazed genetics works like Earth-human does --- doubling up the chromosomes in one of Troi's eggs and proceeding from there.)
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Old October 25 2013, 08:02 AM   #28
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

I've always liked this episode but this is the first time I've seen it since becoming a parent and I recognised so many more nuances on this rewatch and found myself tearing up on more than one occasion. It is one of TNG's finest hours.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
But what really brings this episode down even further than that is this closing line by Data.
Data: I thank you for your sympathy, but she is here. Her presence so enriched my life that I could not allow her to pass into oblivion. So I incorporated her programs back into my own. I have transferred her memories to me.
#@&!#)(*UR%)#!(%$*!)_@(b(##)e*!Uw@$)%&ar!#(*e$_o)! f(@n#_ew$~52!!!!!!!!!!!
I interpreted that scene so differently. I will always believe that my father lives on in my head, and in the heads of other people that loved him. That is because we shared memories, albeit from different perspectives. And if you remember someone, they're not really dead. It's a philosophy that I have taken with me through life, I'm not sure if it comes from my original viewing of this episode.

jimbotron wrote: View Post
This is another top-notch season 3 episode, but the core inconsistencies with The Measure of a Man are pretty glaring. Try watching them back-to-back, it's confusing. We see Picard on both sides of the argument in the same episode. First he calls it an invention, and then he tries to prevent a child from being separated from the parent.

No mention of the first time a cast member directed an episode of Trek? (Trek movies excepted) Frakes broke the barrier, allowing many other Trek actors a chance to direct as well.
I loved that Frakes "cameoed" himself into one of the cutest and funniest scenes of the episode.

Regarding Picard's apparent change of ethos. I don't believe as humans we are static in our beliefs - they aren't set in stone, a little maleable. Off subject, but to explain my point is a situation I recently found myself faced with. I consider myself a socialist (don't confuse "small s socialism with communism please America) and believe that history shows public services provide a better service when owned by the public and recycle their profits back into that service. But I found myself in a position to buy into the Royal Mail flotation here in the UK, and profit from it. I was faced with a dilemma, make a stance based on my principals and watch the sale go through anyway, or buy in, thereby benefiting my family and having a voice within the company. I chose to buy in. My principals haven't changed but I chose the practical option based upon the world we live in. I believe that Picard is also a pragmatist and was giving the opposing arguement to prepare Data for the controversy to come.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Vulture Capitalist wrote: View Post
Yar's death informed another female character, so it doesn't really count.
Actually it made it worse. We took what was this great moment for a character and all of a sudden decided "Let's just say some Romulan had sex with her, gave birth to an evil Romulan clone of herself and say she died later on." And what did it amount to? Some four and a half episode appearances and that's it. No conclusion to her character at all.
I agree with you here Jeyl. Why would Yar willingly become the concubine of a Romulan?

You never made it clear why you believe that this episode takes place into a different reality than that in A Matter of Perspective. What is so different here that makes you believe that Sela didn't exist previously?
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Old October 25 2013, 04:40 PM   #29
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

MikeS wrote: View Post
You never made it clear why you believe that this episode takes place into a different reality than that in A Matter of Perspective. What is so different here that makes you believe that Sela didn't exist previously?
I wasn't trying to say that everything after "Yesterday's Enterprise" takes place in a different reality. Quite the opposite. I was trying to say that it takes place in the SAME reality only altered due to time travel. Yesterday's Enterprise did not depict time travel as a means of travelling through different realities where the reality they originated from is unaltered. If that was the case, we nothing would have been different when the Enterprise C when through the rift. But when it did go through the rift, we literally see this same reality being altered. When the Enterprise C goes back, this reality gets altered back to what it was, but with something... different. That's Sela.
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Old October 26 2013, 06:36 AM   #30
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
When the Enterprise C goes back, this reality gets altered back to what it was, but with something... different. That's Sela.
The way I interpret it, the "C" always went to the future and then back again. Her Captain always died, Yar always joined the crew, Sela always existed. The "quantum reality" is the same in Matter of Perspective & The Offfspring. There is nothing that I can see that would support or disprove mine or your interpretation of time travel used in Yesterdays Enterprise.
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