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View Poll Results: vote
I prefer the Wrath of Khan 110 72.85%
I Prefer Into Darkness 17 11.26%
I like them both the same 24 15.89%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 18 2013, 01:19 PM   #136
Use of Time
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Wrath of Khan over STID every day and twice on Sunday. Call it nostalgia or rose colored glasses but it is what motivates me to rewatch that movie a couple times a year. That being said, I really enjoyed STID. Simply pointing at the screen and yelling "hey, that's been done before" is not enough to turn me off to what I thought was a pretty fun couple of hours.
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Old November 18 2013, 01:51 PM   #137
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

BillJ wrote: View Post
So if The Wrath of Khan had never happened, Into Darkness would've been a good movie? That really makes no sense.

Most of the audience either hadn't seen TWOK in thirty years or hadn't seen it at all. So it was new to them.
Nonsense. That's like saying Star Wars would be new to the audiences that will go to see the next movie just because the original Star Wars came out over 35 years ago.
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Old November 18 2013, 02:09 PM   #138
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Timewalker wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
So if The Wrath of Khan had never happened, Into Darkness would've been a good movie? That really makes no sense.

Most of the audience either hadn't seen TWOK in thirty years or hadn't seen it at all. So it was new to them.
Nonsense. That's like saying Star Wars would be new to the audiences that will go to see the next movie just because the original Star Wars came out over 35 years ago.
Believe it or not, not everyone is as obsessed with Star Trek as we are. My mother-in-law has seen The Wrath of Khan exactly once about a decade ago and loved Star Trek Into Darkness.

In my extended family, most have either a passing or no interest in Trek at all. From what I read on these boards, many people are in the same boat.
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Old November 18 2013, 02:45 PM   #139
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Wrath of Khan over STID every day and twice on Sunday. Call it nostalgia or rose colored glasses but it is what motivates me to rewatch that movie a couple times a year. That being said, I really enjoyed STID. Simply pointing at the screen and yelling "hey, that's been done before" is not enough to turn me off to what I thought was a pretty fun couple of hours.
It's also that the execution of Spock's death scene is far superior to the execution of Kirk's death scene. When Kirk runs down the corridors, and it's intercut with the creation of the Genesis planet. The theme of life, death and rebirth is a major part of the story, and it all climaxed beautifully in that scene.

The script of STD is all over the place.
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Old November 18 2013, 03:03 PM   #140
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Oh no doubt but it's not really fair to compare those two scenes alone. We are talking about one of the most iconic scenes in the history of the franchise so STID didn't really have a chance to one up TWOK in that regard. I do think that they were able to suceed in putting a clever twist on that concept though. I had a small smirk on my face when I realized their roles were flipped. I don't really think the script for STID was all over the place either. It seemed to flow nicely.
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Old November 18 2013, 08:01 PM   #141
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Usually when I watch a movie , especially a Star Trek one, I do as a casual viewer. I want to be surprised, intrigued, or even shocked.

On the other hand, if I see the same old cliches, gimmicks and mindless action sequences, I get bored quick.

running in front of an explosion that happens from 3 different angles-seriously, who really gets excited by seeing that anymore?

Kirk's death and resurrection wasn't that much of a surprise or shock because we've seen this happen in movies millions of times already.

In the TWOK it may have surprised people because the movie ended that way, and no one saw it coming.

In STID, Kirk's death and resurrection happens in a matter of moments-plus the franchise just started, so most people had expect Kirk to be miraculously, scientifically brought back.

They just had to.

The funny thing is I like Star Wars movies, and they're guilty of the same thing, except it's just executed better.
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Old November 18 2013, 09:34 PM   #142
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

BillJ wrote: View Post

So if The Wrath of Khan had never happened, Into Darkness would've been a good movie? That really makes no sense.

Most of the audience either hadn't seen TWOK in thirty years or hadn't seen it at all. So it was new to them.
I don't think that's what Bry_Sinclair is saying since he said "would have enjoyed it MORE."

But since I can't speak for anyone else here, here are my feelings: I think the main problem with rehashing TWOK is not just that it rehashes parts of TWOK, but that it rehashes parts of TWOK that work because of the history between the characters. The Kirk/Spock scene in TWOK works, because they have years of history between them in TWOK. Not so in STID. When Khan shows up in TWOK, it's a big deal because of the history between him and Kirk. When Khan shows up in STID, he's just some dude trying to save his pals using questionable methods. There is nothing really else tying them together. He says his name is Khan, and everyone is all like, "so what?" There is no impact to this revelation (to the character), which is why I question them making Khan the bad guy in this movie at all.

My biggest problem, though, is the Kirk/Spock switch, which has little to no emotional impact (in my opinion) because these guys just met each other. I mean, I suppose it's sad and all, but I found it quite underwhelming. By the time Spock starts yelling "Khaaaann!" I was facepalming, it all seemed like a bad joke to me.

So, I would say that if TWOK never existed, or if I'd never seen it, I would still be less than impressed overall with STID. I don't hate STID, it's just.. meh. A lot of lens flares and action sequences, not much else.
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Old November 19 2013, 02:56 AM   #143
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

nureintier wrote:
I mean, I suppose it's sad and all, but I found it quite underwhelming. By the time Spock starts yelling "Khaaaann!" I was facepalming, it all seemed like a bad joke to me.
Agree.
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Old November 19 2013, 04:18 AM   #144
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

nureintier wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

So if The Wrath of Khan had never happened, Into Darkness would've been a good movie? That really makes no sense.

Most of the audience either hadn't seen TWOK in thirty years or hadn't seen it at all. So it was new to them.
I don't think that's what Bry_Sinclair is saying since he said "would have enjoyed it MORE."

But since I can't speak for anyone else here, here are my feelings: I think the main problem with rehashing TWOK is not just that it rehashes parts of TWOK, but that it rehashes parts of TWOK that work because of the history between the characters. The Kirk/Spock scene in TWOK works, because they have years of history between them in TWOK. Not so in STID. When Khan shows up in TWOK, it's a big deal because of the history between him and Kirk. When Khan shows up in STID, he's just some dude trying to save his pals using questionable methods. There is nothing really else tying them together. He says his name is Khan, and everyone is all like, "so what?" There is no impact to this revelation (to the character), which is why I question them making Khan the bad guy in this movie at all.

My biggest problem, though, is the Kirk/Spock switch, which has little to no emotional impact (in my opinion) because these guys just met each other. I mean, I suppose it's sad and all, but I found it quite underwhelming. By the time Spock starts yelling "Khaaaann!" I was facepalming, it all seemed like a bad joke to me.
Thank you! I'm not alone! Those are pretty much the reasons those scenes didn't work for me. But I did enjoy the rest of the film. I just really wish they didn't go and mess it up.
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Old November 21 2013, 05:48 PM   #145
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

The Wrath of Khan, while not perfect, was massively better. In particular, Khan had much better motivation and presence than either the new Khan or Marcus and Kirk, Spock and Saavik's storylines were much more interesting than new Kirk, Spock or Carol's.
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Old November 21 2013, 07:25 PM   #146
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Use of Time wrote: View Post
...
We are talking about one of the most iconic scenes in the history of the franchise so STID didn't really have a chance to one up TWOK in that regard. I do think that they were able to suceed in putting a clever twist on that concept though. I had a small smirk on my face when I realized their roles were flipped.
And the fact that it is one of the most iconic scenes in the franchise is precisely the reason I don't think it should have been done. I have no problem with it being self-referential, but I guess I don't like them messing with that scene in particular because it's bound to compare unfavorably. Especially since the characters have no history together at that point and since we know they couldn't really kill Kirk at that point.

I dunno. I am probably more annoyed by it than I should be, but I can't quite get over my annoyance with it.
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Old November 22 2013, 03:30 PM   #147
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

STID by a country mile. As far as I'm concerned, Into Darkness is Wrath of Khan only not atrociously bad. Cumberbatch sells the dangerous traits of Khan in a way Montalban was never capable of; he actually seems calculating and dangerous instead of an impatient, easily-baited buffoon.

The movie itself still has a few holes in it, but none of them are as glaring or leap out at me as much as the ones in TWOK. I wasn't big on Kirk's resurrection or the magic blood thing, but that's my only real knock against the movie.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:44 PM   #148
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:49 PM   #149
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

ichab wrote: View Post
I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.
They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.
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Old November 23 2013, 10:08 PM   #150
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
ichab wrote: View Post
I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.
They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.


Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.
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