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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 21 2013, 02:01 AM   #91
Timewalker
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Kirk and Decker didn't have that kind of relationship or trust built up, and Kirk wanted to be sure that his orders wouldn't be questioned.
Except that Decker did question them (and rightfully so). And whatever Spock's trust in Kirk might have been, the cadets (aside from perhaps Saavik) didn't know Kirk well enough to trust him the way Sulu, Scotty, and Uhura did. They knew his reputation, certainly. But reputation and reality don't always go together.

In some ways, it's actually more surprising that there wasn't a problem during TWOK (compared to TMP) after the Enterprise was crippled in part because Kirk was asleep at the wheel. OTOH, given that Kirk was also the only reason why the ship managed to escape destruction, perhaps the cadets realized that they couldn't have done any better in his place.

--Sran
Yes, I know Decker questioned orders. But Kirk wasn't expecting him to, at least not the way it happened. And at first he had an angry reaction to being questioned. It was only later that he realized Decker was right.

I wasn't thinking of the cadets. My point was that Kirk and Spock had served together for a long time and knew each other so well that even if an order seemed a bit odd, Spock would tend to follow it anyway, given Kirk's track record of achieving solutions by unorthodox/illogical means.
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Old October 21 2013, 02:27 AM   #92
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
There was definitely potential for the crew to work with Decker as either XO or CO if Kirk returned to his desk job after TMP. I don't think it's likely McCoy would have stayed, but Spock may have found it worthwhile to work with Decker before getting his own command.
But Spock never wished to command. He only accepted command of the Enterprise when it became a training vessel, because his ambition was to teach, not to lead.


Sran wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Kirk and Decker didn't have that kind of relationship or trust built up, and Kirk wanted to be sure that his orders wouldn't be questioned.
Except that Decker did question them (and rightfully so).
Absolutely right. A captain who doesn't want his orders questioned is a bad captain. (Well, maybe not his orders, but his decision-making leading up to the issuing of orders.) It's a first officer's job to question the captain, to be a check on the captain's judgment. How many times did we see Kirk argue with Spock over the right course of action and then end up taking Spock's advice anyway?


In some ways, it's actually more surprising that there wasn't a problem during TWOK (compared to TMP) after the Enterprise was crippled in part because Kirk was asleep at the wheel. OTOH, given that Kirk was also the only reason why the ship managed to escape destruction, perhaps the cadets realized that they couldn't have done any better in his place.
Well, what problem could there have been? Like you said, they were cadets. They weren't even in the regular chain of command. Everyone who had any actual authority on the ship at that point was a veteran of Kirk's crew, except for Saavik -- and she did, in fact, question Kirk's decisions repeatedly.
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Old October 21 2013, 03:04 AM   #93
Sran
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
But Spock never wished to command. He only accepted command of the Enterprise when it became a training vessel, because his ambition was to teach, not to lead.
True. But I think Spock would have found it both valuable and insightful to serve under another captain precisely because he wanted to teach rather than command. It's likely he used more than a few tricks he learned from Pike and Kirk to teach his youngsters. Would he have learned anything from Decker that he could not have learned from Kirk? I don't know. But it's interesting to think about how Decker's style of command would have evolved had the Enterprise been his ship. If he really was the original Riker, the post-TMP Enterprise would have been an interesting place to be.

Christopher wrote:
Absolutely right. A captain who doesn't want his orders questioned is a bad captain. (Well, maybe not his orders, but his decision-making leading up to the issuing of orders.) It's a first officer's job to question the captain, to be a check on the captain's judgment. How many times did we see Kirk argue with Spock over the right course of action and then end up taking Spock's advice anyway?
And Kirk admitted as much to Decker after the latter kept asking about using the screens and shields to ward off an attack by the intruder.

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Old October 21 2013, 04:22 AM   #94
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

The Dead Mixer wrote: View Post
Regarding the demotions when Kirk took command, I think they were Kirk's call, not Nogura's.
In at least one draft, Nogura actually has the line, "It's a captain's command," which made it pretty clear that he's the one making that determination, or at least the one enforcing it.
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Old October 21 2013, 04:43 AM   #95
Sran
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

trevanian wrote: View Post
In at least one draft, Nogura actually has the line, "It's a captain's command," which made it pretty clear that he's the one making that determination, or at least the one enforcing it.
Interesting. I suppose it makes sense given that Enterprise was a single ship and not part of a fleet of ships intended to stop the intruder. Had the vessel been part of an armada, it may have made sense for an admiral to command the fleet from a designated flagship as seen during Deep Space 9.

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Old October 21 2013, 05:21 AM   #96
Timewalker
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
In at least one draft, Nogura actually has the line, "It's a captain's command," which made it pretty clear that he's the one making that determination, or at least the one enforcing it.
Interesting. I suppose it makes sense given that Enterprise was a single ship and not part of a fleet of ships intended to stop the intruder. Had the vessel been part of an armada, it may have made sense for an admiral to command the fleet from a designated flagship as seen during Deep Space 9.

--Sran
But how often did we actually see admirals doing that in the TOS era? I recall Commodores having expanded responsibilities, but admirals were basically stuck behind a desk somewhere, and never on a ship. DS9 is over 80 years in the future from TMP, and in the intervening years, the Commodore rank disappeared and many other changes were made.
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Old October 21 2013, 04:20 PM   #97
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Timewalker wrote: View Post
But how often did we actually see admirals doing that in the TOS era? I recall Commodores having expanded responsibilities, but admirals were basically stuck behind a desk somewhere, and never on a ship. DS9 is over 80 years in the future from TMP, and in the intervening years, the Commodore rank disappeared and many other changes were made.
Yes, but the Star Trek universe was a great deal smaller in TOS than in DS9. It's entirely possible we would have seen that sort of thing had there been more than three seasons of material for the writers to work with. As it happened, the TOS films themselves did a lot to expand the ST universe beyond the scope in which we'd originally seen it. With Kirk commanding Enterprise as an admiral, it opened the door for a lot of things to happen that hadn't been shown previously.

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Old October 22 2013, 04:49 AM   #98
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Does anyone else prefer TMP's orbiting space station to the gargantuan orbiting megalopolis from ST3?

I always liked that appears more "credible", seemingly build from technology from "times past", not to mention it doesn't overwhelm the Enterprise in terms of "awe". Of course, I probably have the lingering memory of the Enterprise being "the largest man-made object in space" (from which I don't even recall the source of this comment)!
It probably helps that I love the music in this scene, too!
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Old October 22 2013, 06:59 AM   #99
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

^Apples to oranges. The floating office is just that, an office. Its purpose was to provide the refit engineering team with a meeting site separate from the Enterprise itself. The spacedock seen in TSFS was intended to house several ships, so of course it would have be much larger than Enterprise or any other vessel inside of it.

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Old October 22 2013, 10:41 AM   #100
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
I do wonder if Kirk actually intended for Sonak to eventually become first-officer once the mission was over. If Kirk was planning to stay aboard, it's likely he'd have needed another first-officer if Decker was leaving.
Note that, in the Real World, Sonak was only created so they didn't end up wasting David Gautreaux's research into creating Xon. (Although they did end up wasting him.) Sonak was always slated to be indispensable.
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Old October 22 2013, 03:44 PM   #101
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Does anyone else prefer TMP's orbiting space station to the gargantuan orbiting megalopolis from ST3?
Yes. Really, I never cared for any of ILM's Trek ship or station designs.
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Old October 22 2013, 09:39 PM   #102
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
^Apples to oranges. The floating office is just that, an office. Its purpose was to provide the refit engineering team with a meeting site separate from the Enterprise itself. The spacedock seen in TSFS was intended to house several ships, so of course it would have be much larger than Enterprise or any other vessel inside of it.

--Sran
I thought of something along those lines, too, that it would have been difficult to stage an exciting escape scene from the office-station. I suppose a good writer could have done it. That would not be me. I suppose I just go for the right-on-the-edge-of-believability of the office.

The ST3 spacedock didn't really start to bother me until years after the fact. It just seemed too fanciful for the time. 27th century or something, maybe...but not 23rd.

Pretty fair chance in my mind that they were basically running away from anything TMP...
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Old October 22 2013, 10:03 PM   #103
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Plus, they'd already flipped the orbital office upside down and used it for Regula One in WoK.
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Old October 23 2013, 02:07 AM   #104
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Hmm, that is true, drt. Time for something new by 3, I guess. But then they went and used it in that Next Generation episode, which by the scale of the ship would make it even larger! Just imagine if it popped up in the new movies: darn thing grows by leaps and bounds!!
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Old October 23 2013, 07:58 PM   #105
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Indysolo wrote: View Post
Quick Overture corrections.

The Overture for TMP run 1:43, not 3 minutes. The 3:01 "Ilia's Theme" was recorded for the album and used as the Overture on "The Director's Edition". A long version of the Overture was recorded (running 2:50) but not used. All of these recordings can be heard on the La-La Land release which also explains the differences in the various recordings.

Neil
I'm watching TMP Director's Edition right now. The Ilia theme is 3:01 at the very beginning of the disk. The Paramount logo doesn't appear until 3:05, and the opening credits after that.
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