RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,362
Posts: 5,355,846
Members: 24,626
Currently online: 542
Newest member: glmrkills

TrekToday headlines

Borg Cube Fridge
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Free Enterprise Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Siddig To Join Game Of Thrones
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Sci-Fried To Release New Album
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek into Darkness Soundtrack
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Horse 1, Shatner 0
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 12 2013, 12:48 AM   #226
OneBuckFilms
Fleet Captain
 
OneBuckFilms's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Then we see him as first officer...for all of maybe ten minutes. Then Spock comes aboard, and Decker gets booted out of his first officer chair, too!
Actually, that's not correct. Decker was still first-officer after Spock came aboard, as the latter took only the position of science-officer. Although Spock had been Kirk's first-officer for the five-year mission, Decker outranked him by virtue of having the official rank of captain to Spock's commander. Decker's grade-reduction was to be only for the duration of the V'Ger mission.

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
The key to understanding Decker, IMHO, is to understand that even though he was Captain during the refit, he was still new to the officers and crew he was working with, and as Scotty stated, he was "Untried".
I wouldn't say he was new to the crew. Decker hand-picked most of the Enterprise personnel himself and worked closely with both Scotty and Uhura throughout the refit. It's not clear how well he knew Sulu, Chekov, or Chapel as their statuses during and after the refit weren't clear. They were aboard by the time Kirk showed up, but they may have been there at his request.

You're right that he was new to the captain's chair, but if we're to use the enthusiasm and energy with which he was involved in the refit as an example, he was clearly dedicated to his job. TMP/Phase II source materials indicate he was first-officer of the USS Boston for four years, so he had some command experience from that assignment.

--Sran
I don't know about the unused bits and pieces, as only the final film is "canon", and that is the only source of information I use when assessing the film. The Novelization departs from the film in so many ways, especially the third act, that it cannot serve as any kind of authority.

For this reason, I cannot agree with the idea that Decker hand picked everyone, or most of the key personnel.

He had spent 18 months on the refit, but he did not have the same history as Kirk had with the key personnel. He was more of someone working with the Chief Engineer on prepping the ship, and had yet to earn the loyalty Kirk had.

There's a big difference between being an administrator on an engineering project with no field command experience to being an experienced commander with a loyal familiarity with the crew.

That still makes him an outsider of sorts, and this was even commented on by Robert Wise and Mr. Collins in the special features as working well with him being cast late in the game.

He may have had command experience of various kinds prior to the Enterprise, but not with that crew.
OneBuckFilms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 02:14 AM   #227
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm embarrassed to admit that I did, in fact, miss seeing the scaffolding the first several times I saw the TV version of the film. But then, my family only had a small black-and-white TV at the time.
I'm not sure if I noticed scaffolding, per se, the first time I saw this. I do know I didn't understand what I was looking at. I was confused if that was intentionally put in as some part of V'ger holding onto the saucer section, or what. In a multi-million dollar feature picture, you don't expect to see "The Man Behind the Curtain" ... especially in such a blatant way. Like seeing Frank Oz pop his head up in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, with his hand up Yoda's ass and puppetting his dialogue. It's just not done ... Of course STAR TREK has to be the franchise to shame itself in this way.
__________________
― I see only The Gold.™
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 02:57 AM   #228
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Of course STAR TREK has to be the franchise to shame itself in this way.
It's not like it was Paramount's idea. The theatrical cut had a runtime of 2 hours and 12 minutes, and at the time there were about 10-12 minutes of commercials per hour on TV, so it was too long for a 2.5-hour time slot and too short for a 3-hour time slot. So ABC needed to pad it out to fit a 3-hour slot, and therefore they crammed in whatever extra footage was available, including the Kirk-spacewalk footage from the abandoned Memory Wall sequence.

I suppose it would've been easy enough to go the other way and cut 6 minutes for a 2.5-hour slot -- heck, with TMP it would be very easy to cut 6 minutes -- but the network apparently wanted to make an event of it, to be more than just a rerun and offer previously unseen material. Apparently they helped finance the film in exchange for TV rights and wanted to get the most for their money.

And let's keep in mind that despite the production glitches of the Memory Wall footage, the ABC version also restores a lot of dialogue that fleshes out characterization in ways the theatrical cut didn't, so it's generally been considered an improvement.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 11:19 AM   #229
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
Apparently they helped finance the film in exchange for TV rights and wanted to get the most for their money.

And let's keep in mind that despite the production glitches of the Memory Wall footage, the ABC version also restores a lot of dialogue that fleshes out characterization in ways the theatrical cut didn't, so it's generally been considered an improvement.
Restoring deleted material often isn't an improvement over the original theatrical release (as with WRATH of KHAN), but yes, TMP needs to have more character moments in it, no matter how insubstantial. It's kind of always annoyed me, in fact, that while whole scenes got deleted, the real-life TREK nerds (particularly that one heavy guy with the bad skin) persistantly made the next cut. Now why is that? Granted a couple of the real life TREK girls mixed in there are cute.

But I'd rather spend a little more time with the crew during this movie, if I can. I would rather it not be solely in the Director's Edition, however, as I do not care for that version. It's just such a relief for me to get to talk about TMP to people who love it so much, when most fans seem eager to dismiss it. Owning it only as a completist, or having only viewed it once out of curiosity, or whatever ...
__________________
― I see only The Gold.™
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 11:44 AM   #230
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
And let's keep in mind that despite the production glitches of the Memory Wall footage, the ABC version also restores a lot of dialogue that fleshes out characterization in ways the theatrical cut didn't, so it's generally been considered an improvement.
Lest anybody get confused by calling this "Memory Wall footage", the ABC version did not restore footage of the Memory Wall itself. Unless I am mistaken, of the scenes filmed with Kirk in the spacesuit used in the Memory Wall segment, the only scenes added for broadcast were of Kirk getting into the spacesuit and of Kirk leaving the ship to go after Spock, which includes the infamous "scaffolding shot". That was all edited together to make it appear that Kirk was exiting the ship right before Spock activates his emergency evacuation rocket.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 12:05 PM   #231
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Would it have killed "them" to blow up/enlarge the print of Kirk floating out of the Enterprise, so that the scaffolding was cropped-out? What would that have co$t them? An Editor's stipend? Hell, let some intern do it, I don't care. But no, just put it in raw, audiences aren't bright ... they won't even notice, so what's the difference?
__________________
― I see only The Gold.™
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 03:04 PM   #232
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Lest anybody get confused by calling this "Memory Wall footage", the ABC version did not restore footage of the Memory Wall itself.
Right, since that was never shot aside from some test footage. What I meant, which I should've made clearer, was that the footage of Kirk spacewalking in the alternate suit was the beginning of the overall Memory-Wall spacewalk sequence that was scrapped in its entirety in favor of the solo "Spock Walk."
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 03:43 PM   #233
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
And let's keep in mind that despite the production glitches of the Memory Wall footage, the ABC version also restores a lot of dialogue that fleshes out characterization in ways the theatrical cut didn't, so it's generally been considered an improvement.
In which I'm also thankful for since a lot of the new footage made it into the Director's Edition.
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 05:04 PM   #234
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Would it have killed "them" to blow up/enlarge the print of Kirk floating out of the Enterprise, so that the scaffolding was cropped-out? What would that have co$t them? An Editor's stipend? Hell, let some intern do it, I don't care. But no, just put it in raw, audiences aren't bright ... they won't even notice, so what's the difference?
That still wouldn't have solved the problem of Kirk's spacesuit being different from the suit he's wearing when he picks up Spock. My opinion is that they should have just kept the footage of Kirk in the "alternate spacesuit" out altogether.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 05:09 PM   #235
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Like I said, once ABC decided to expand rather than cutting, they were constrained by the need to fit a 3-hour time slot that was about 12% commercials. In order to pad the film out to that length, they apparently had no choice but to use the alternate spacewalk footage. I'm not aware of any other major deleted sequences that they could've used in its place.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 05:13 PM   #236
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

I remember some of the effects guys doing the Director's Edition wanted to make a joke by remastering that scene with a new matte of the Enterprise. They decided not to because those who don't get that it was a joke will interpret that the Director's Edition was going to restore the whole memory wall sequence.
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 07:36 PM   #237
Firebird
Lieutenant
 
Firebird's Avatar
 
Location: Omaha, to the west of the Starfleet Shipyards
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Lest anybody get confused by calling this "Memory Wall footage", the ABC version did not restore footage of the Memory Wall itself.
Right, since that was never shot aside from some test footage. What I meant, which I should've made clearer, was that the footage of Kirk spacewalking in the alternate suit was the beginning of the overall Memory-Wall spacewalk sequence that was scrapped in its entirety in favor of the solo "Spock Walk."
IIRC, the 1st-Unit photography on the Memory Wall sequence was completed during principal photography. I know it was worked on at least beginning during November '78. Whether or not pick-up shots or 2nd-Unit shooting happened, I haven't a clue.
__________________
I will put this as succinctly as possible - get me the hell out of here!
Firebird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 08:34 PM   #238
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

The memory wall spacewalk was shot. There are plenty of photos showing it. There were well beyond tests, but it's some of the tests that were included amongst the DE special features.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 10:31 PM   #239
LMFAOschwarz
Captain
 
LMFAOschwarz's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
The theatrical cut had a runtime of 2 hours and 12 minutes...
"Two hours and twelve minutes"...didn't Scotty say that once?
LMFAOschwarz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 12:44 AM   #240
OneBuckFilms
Fleet Captain
 
OneBuckFilms's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Firebird wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Lest anybody get confused by calling this "Memory Wall footage", the ABC version did not restore footage of the Memory Wall itself.
Right, since that was never shot aside from some test footage. What I meant, which I should've made clearer, was that the footage of Kirk spacewalking in the alternate suit was the beginning of the overall Memory-Wall spacewalk sequence that was scrapped in its entirety in favor of the solo "Spock Walk."
IIRC, the 1st-Unit photography on the Memory Wall sequence was completed during principal photography. I know it was worked on at least beginning during November '78. Whether or not pick-up shots or 2nd-Unit shooting happened, I haven't a clue.
I think they abandoned the sequence because it wasn't working.

I remember reading or hearing somewhere that the Memory Wall sequence really had very little footage beyond what was seen on the DE DVD.
OneBuckFilms is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:20 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.