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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 29 2013, 03:31 AM   #136
Avro Arrow
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I'm having to lean towards Gotham Central once again. Witness the sheer variety...
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0542.jpg
What's with the two guys in white uniforms wearing Galactic Empire rank insignia in place of the Starfleet emblem?
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Old October 29 2013, 04:05 AM   #137
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

^Not sure what those mean. If I had to guess, I'd say those crew members were last-minute transfers from another ship and hadn't changed their uniforms, or the emblems were indicative of some sort of civilian or provisional crew member status. Recall that personnel serving on different ships during the TOS era (prior to TWOK) frequently wore different emblems or insignia on their uniforms. The traditional Starfleet insignia was originally worn only by Enterprise crew members. It's always been speculated that Kirk used his pull as Chief of Starfleet Operations to get the emblem adopted by the rest of the fleet.

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Old October 29 2013, 04:14 AM   #138
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Also, what's that guy in the front row center wearing, the guy who resembles Vladimir Putin's stunt double?
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Old October 29 2013, 04:38 AM   #139
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
The traditional Starfleet insignia was originally worn only by Enterprise crew members. It's always been speculated that Kirk used his pull as Chief of Starfleet Operations to get the emblem adopted by the rest of the fleet.
That's a myth. In "Court-martial," we clearly see that Starfleet officers who aren't from the Enterprise were also wearing the arrowhead insignia. Somewhere on this BBS, there is a quote of a Bob Justman memo from TOS complaining that the use of different ship insignias in "The Doomsday Machine" and "The Omega Glory" was a production error, because Roddenberry's intent had been for the arrowhead to be the emblem for all Starfleet capital ships; the Antares insignia in "Charlie X" was meant to represent the merchant marine or something of the sort.

And later evidence has been consistent with this. VGR: "Friendship One" established a sideways version of the arrowhead as the United Earth Space Probe Agency insignia in the late 21st century. ENT used a very small version of the arrowhead in its enlisted crew rating patches. And the 2009 film establishes that the Kelvin crew used the arrowhead in 2233.
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Old October 29 2013, 04:45 AM   #140
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

This is the original post by Harvey revealing the arrowhead-emblem-debunking-memo, before someone points to the Phase II article which copied it.
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Old October 29 2013, 05:28 AM   #141
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.

I'd also imagine those jackets getting darned hot to wear in the sun!
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Old October 29 2013, 05:51 AM   #142
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.
I tend to agree. In contrast to most people, I don't mind the pastel look of the TMP uniforms and find them much more realistic than the TWOK British Redcoat attire. The FC uniforms remain my favorite in all of Star Trek. But the TMP uniforms are a close second.

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Old October 29 2013, 05:56 AM   #143
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

One additional item I've been wondering about: did Kirk take Decker's quarters on Deck 5? Or was Decker already staying somewhere else? We never see Decker's quarters- or anyone else's for that matter, save for the crew quarters in which the Ilia probe appears- so there's no way of knowing where he was when off-duty.

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Old October 29 2013, 06:20 AM   #144
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.
I tend to agree. In contrast to most people, I don't mind the pastel look of the TMP uniforms and find them much more realistic than the TWOK British Redcoat attire.
The TWOK uniforms look great, very 'theatrical', which is awesome for a movie where the strong visual imprint is the king. But I don't like them a lot myself, for the simple reason that I don't think they're very practical in the sense of being real uniforms. The TMP jumpsuits have their own problems, but I do think that in-'verse they're much more appropriate than the almost too elaborate TWOK duds. Certainly as far as regular ship operation is concerned. I don't find the TWOK uniforms believable in that context.
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Old October 29 2013, 06:22 AM   #145
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Lance wrote: View Post
The TWOK uniforms look great, very 'theatrical', which is awesome for a movie where the strong visual imprint is the king. But I don't like them a lot myself, for the simple reason that I don't think they're very practical in the sense of being real uniforms. The TMP jumpsuits have their own problems, but I do think that in-'verse they're much more appropriate than the almost too elaborate TWOK duds. Certainly as far as regular ship operation is concerned. I don't find the TWOK uniforms believable in that context.
Agreed. As dress uniforms, they would have been outstanding.
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Old October 29 2013, 06:40 AM   #146
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
The TWOK uniforms look great, very 'theatrical', which is awesome for a movie where the strong visual imprint is the king. But I don't like them a lot myself, for the simple reason that I don't think they're very practical in the sense of being real uniforms. The TMP jumpsuits have their own problems, but I do think that in-'verse they're much more appropriate than the almost too elaborate TWOK duds. Certainly as far as regular ship operation is concerned. I don't find the TWOK uniforms believable in that context.
Agreed. As dress uniforms, they would have been outstanding.
It would have been terrific if they'd just been dress uniforms that the entire crew were wearing to honor the occasion of Kirk being back aboard the ship. But I'd have liked to have seen them maybe replaced by a more 'practical' alternative once Enterprise has actually been launched and is on their way to Regula I.

We did see crewmembers in the movies occasionally shed their red tunics and just wear the shirts underneath. Even those shirts in themselves (with the affixation of the Starfleet badge, of course) would have sufficed as 'regular' operational uniforms I think.

One thing I do approve of in ST5 is that Shatner did give Kirk, Spock and McCoy an alternative uniform. I just think it would have been nice to have seen something like that in the other movies.
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Old October 29 2013, 07:44 AM   #147
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Question....

I've read that the cast hated wearing the uniforms in TMP because they were uncomfortable and hurt their backs. However, I never understood why. The uniforms actually looked quite comfortable and loose compared to other versions.

Also...is it really appropriate to call these "uniforms"? They are more like Starfleet approved clothes than uniforms. I swear it looked like no two people were wearing the same outfit and there seemed to be no protocol over who would wear what.
Walter Koenig goes into the issue of the uniforms in his book Chekov's Enterprise. He says some of the uniforms were indeed very uncomfortable, and one of the offending things was that the shoes and pants were all part of the same piece of clothing. He also says the schedule for constructing and fitting some of the costumes got severely backlogged, and it was common for someone to get a call to be fitted for a costume needed in a scene that had already been filmed a week or two before.

Maybe they just had too big a costume budget and got over-ambitious...?
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Old October 29 2013, 11:13 AM   #148
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Maurice wrote: View Post
Phase II was using modified versions of the series uniforms, it was only when it became TMP that Robert Fletcher was retained to design new costumes.
Sorry, I was thinking of the planning for what was assumed would follow on from TMP. The supporting cast who worked on TMP were under the impression that, after TMP was released, a series of telemovies or episodes would/might continue. The multitude of TMP costumes created were certainly made with longevity in mind.
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Old October 29 2013, 03:10 PM   #149
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Maurice wrote: View Post
This is the original post by Harvey revealing the arrowhead-emblem-debunking-memo, before someone points to the Phase II article which copied it.
Thanks -- I knew someone would know where that post was.


Lance wrote: View Post
We did see crewmembers in the movies occasionally shed their red tunics and just wear the shirts underneath. Even those shirts in themselves (with the affixation of the Starfleet badge, of course) would have sufficed as 'regular' operational uniforms I think.
Absolutely. They would've resembled the pilot uniforms, a turtleneck and black trousers.


Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Sorry, I was thinking of the planning for what was assumed would follow on from TMP. The supporting cast who worked on TMP were under the impression that, after TMP was released, a series of telemovies or episodes would/might continue. The multitude of TMP costumes created were certainly made with longevity in mind.
Are you sure the plan was to go back to TV, rather than doing theatrical sequels with those uniforms? True, TWOK was originally considered as a TV movie, which was why TV producer Harve Bennett got the gig, but I thought that was because of TMP's budget overruns leading Paramount to scale back their plans.
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Old October 30 2013, 12:39 AM   #150
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I can certainly see Gotham Central's point here, though. It wasn't easy to distinguish ones' position on the ship relative to another. We knew who the characters were, of course, so it was sort of secondary, but still: Kirk at one point wore the pale blue shirt with the long sleeves, then at one point switched over to the short-sleeved white shirt with the v style neck. But Sulu also wore that style, if I remember right. Then there were the pale brown shirts which I thought Scotty wore, but I'm realizing now that he probably didn't. I don't remember who did. Spock's uniform was the only one with the dark raised collar. It did all come across as a bit of a jumble...I do wonder if it would have been confusing if they had had an entirely unfamiliar cast and crew.
According to background info in the old TMP "Make Your Own Costume" book, which had input from Robert Fletcher, personnel were allowed considerable leeway in their uniforms. The different cuts, colors and configurations gave more individual options. Spock's standing collar and McCoy's v-neck/spread collar were their own personalized touches.

As far as being confusing, that shouldn't be a problem within the crew, as long as the rank and department color are visible. If you want to take a "naval" model for Starfleet, navies have traditionally been more relaxed about everyone looking the same, standing in straight lines, marching in step and all of that. For instance, this picture from an aircraft carrier:




LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.
In TMP the metal pin breast badge as worn on Kirk's first uniform was supposed to be for "ground" wear, while those of shipboard personnel had theirs sewn on so it wouldn't snag or poke in the close confines of the ship. Those considerations were obsolete by TWOK, apparently, when the duty uniform had a surfeit of pins, buckles, straps etc.

Sran wrote: View Post
I tend to agree. In contrast to most people, I don't mind the pastel look of the TMP uniforms and find them much more realistic than the TWOK British Redcoat attire. The FC uniforms remain my favorite in all of Star Trek. But the TMP uniforms are a close second.
I understand that they wanted to wipe the slate clean for TWOK, but my preference would have been for the new uniforms to look more like something that could have plausibly evolved from TOS/TMP, rather than such a radical departure from what had been established before.

Sran wrote: View Post
One additional item I've been wondering about: did Kirk take Decker's quarters on Deck 5? Or was Decker already staying somewhere else? We never see Decker's quarters- or anyone else's for that matter, save for the crew quarters in which the Ilia probe appears- so there's no way of knowing where he was when off-duty.
It is possible that there were comparable quarters set aside for embarked VIPs or flag officers and Kirk could take those without displacing Decker immediately.
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