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Old October 12 2013, 02:49 AM   #91
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

^ There shouldn't be a need to have 'federal districts' at all.

I mean, U.S. state capitals are just normal cities, aren't they? Same story here.
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Old October 12 2013, 05:29 AM   #92
Nerys Myk
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ There shouldn't be a need to have 'federal districts' at all.

I mean, U.S. state capitals are just normal cities, aren't they? Same story here.
Still not seeing your point. Why can't there be a Federal District? Because US State capitals aren't? That's all you got?
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Old October 12 2013, 05:44 AM   #93
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

There should only be federal districts if they're needed. Why are they needed?
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Old October 12 2013, 05:46 AM   #94
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
There should only be federal districts if they're needed. Why are they needed?
You're not cleared for that information.
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Old October 12 2013, 06:04 AM   #95
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
I mean, U.S. state capitals are just normal cities, aren't they? Same story here.
State capitals are in the state that they serve, the federal capital is in the nation that it serves, the federal capital shouldn't be in any state, not even it's own.

And yes, DC should be a state.
Transfer all residential areas from DC to Maryland, the US federal government should never be in a state.

Lance wrote: View Post
Plenty of stories have involved the Federation President
They were in a two-part episode and had brief appearances in two movies.

Just because a country decides to maintain it's traditions [snip] doesn't necessarily infer they aren't part of a world government.
But a collect of sovereign nations could assemble a international governing body for specific purposes, while still remaining sovereign nations.

In the episode Cause and Effect, LaForge's medical records appear on screen in a scene in sickbay. LaForge was born in the African Confederation on February 16th, 2335. African Confederation sounds more like a political union of nations, rather than a "ceremonial" pretend nation.

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Old October 12 2013, 07:52 AM   #96
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post

And yes, DC should be a state.
Transfer all residential areas from DC to Maryland, the US federal government should never be in a state.
Agreed. I don't think one city should get two senators. Let them be part of Maryland instead of in limbo like now.
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Old October 12 2013, 09:03 AM   #97
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Another possibility is, as I understand it the current series of novels (which admittedly I don't read) place the federation legislature in the city of San Francisco, along with Starfleet Headquarter and the Academy.
No, the current novels actually place both the Federation Council and the President in Paris. Both are based out of a single capitol building, called the Palais de la Concorde; the Council Chambers are on the first floor, and the President's office is on the 15th floor.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
SO where do we think the UE Government sits, Geneva?
Personally, I don't like that idea. It unintentionally re-enforces the idea of European preeminence over humanity. I much prefer the idea that the capital city of United Earth is located in what we would today think of as Second World or Third World countries. I've occasionally mused that it would be a wonderful thing to imagine the U.E. capital as being in Mogadishu, Somalia, given that nation's current reputation as a failed and lawless state.

I see no reason to imagine that the capital of United Earth need be separate from any pre-existing nation.

Lance wrote: View Post
And has there ever been a mention of the UK Prime Minister in Star Trek's time? No.
No, but the ENT episode "Silent Enemy" establishes that Malcolm Reed's father was deeply disappointed in him for not pursuing a career in the Royal Navy per Reed family tradition. This establishes that the Royal Navy existed at least into the 2130s. The novel Articles of the Federation establishes that United Earth was founded in 2130; if we accept that novel's information, this would imply that the Royal Navy may have continued to exist after the formation of United Earth.

Likewise the United States. No Star Trek story ever revolved around the President Of The United States.
The President of the United States of America has appeared in the novel Spock's World and in the short story "Eleven Hours Out" from the anthology Tales of the Dominion War. In Spock's World, the U.S. Presidency is established to be a mostly-ceremonial office that remains deeply loved by Americans on Earth. In "Eleven Hours Out," the U.S. President joins the Prime Minister of United Earth and the Federation President in touring the devastated City of San Francisco after the Breen attack in 2375.

My own view is that countries still exist in Star Trek's future, but their individual governments are more like local councils. The traditional sovereign borders probably still exist "on a map", but movement between them is free because the planet is united under a single government, and territorial imperitives are no longer a going concern.
I'd agree with that. Much the same way that, say, the provinces of Canada still exist, yet are more concerned with technocratic issues than anything else.

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
I mean, U.S. state capitals are just normal cities, aren't they? Same story here.
State capitals are in the state that they serve, the federal capital is in the nation that it serves, the federal capital shouldn't be in any state, not even it's own.
Why not? It seems to work just fine for Ottawa to be part of the Province of Ontario, or for Berlin to be its own state. Nor, for that matter, does housing the United States Department of Defense in the Commonwealth of Virginia seem to hinder it in its mission of protecting the entire Union. I see no compelling reason for a Federal government not to be housed within one of its constituent polities.

And yes, DC should be a state.
Transfer all residential areas from DC to Maryland
We don't want to be part of Maryland, and Maryland doesn't want to take us in. Your proposal lacks the consent of the peoples whose rights to self-determination it would affect. Meanwhile, why should Wyoming get to be a state but not D.C. when Wyoming has fewer residents?

Just because a country decides to maintain it's traditions [snip] doesn't necessarily infer they aren't part of a world government.
But a collect of sovereign nations could assemble a international governing body for specific purposes, while still remaining sovereign nations.
Nope. Power accumulates. It would be impossible for any such body to effectively represent Earth -- and would be impossible for Earth to be effectively represented by the Federation -- if the constituent nations of United Earth were not to yield their sovereignty to U.E., and if U.E. were not to yield its sovereignty to the Federation.

In the episode Cause and Effect, LaForge's medical records appear on screen in a scene in sickbay. LaForge was born in the African Confederation on February 16th, 2335. African Confederation sounds more like a political union of nations, rather than a "ceremonial" pretend nation.
On the other hand, perhaps the African Confederation is as real and relevant within United Earth as the State of New York is within the United States, and it practices an advanced form of federalism within its own borders.

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post

And yes, DC should be a state.
Transfer all residential areas from DC to Maryland, the US federal government should never be in a state.
Agreed. I don't think one city should get two senators.
So why should fewer people spread out over a wider area (Wyoming) get two senators? Should statehood come with geographic requirements now?

Meanwhile, I'd argue that those portions of Maryland and Virginia constituting the Washington Metropolitan Area should be separated from their states and join with D.C. to form their own, 51st state. It's absurd that someone living in Silver Spring, whose life is far more closely affected by the leadership in D.C. than in Maryland, should have to send delegates to Annapolis instead of the James Wilson Building.
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Old October 12 2013, 09:49 AM   #98
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post

And United Earth has been around for 30 years by the time ENT comes into play, so I'd assume the experimentation was over by that point.
Depending on what you take as the starting date, the European Union is somewhere between 20-40 years old, and the experimentation here seems like it may go on for decades still.
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Old October 12 2013, 01:02 PM   #99
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

^ I was going to bring up the EU. Even outside the realms of it's viability, or the continuing debate even now after more than 40 years that it just plain doesn't work, it is pretty much an encapsulation of what I was trying to say earlier in the thread: there are people who have always assumed that in the Star Trek future individual countries do not exist and that Earth is united under a single government; rather than assuming, logically, that each country would of course still retain it's own individual identity, even within a world-wide government structure.

And the EU is the perfect example of why that would be more likely than not. Europe is (in theory) all united under a single banner, a single 'government', but each individual country still retains their full sovereignty, their individual identities, and their own cultural traditions. France does not stop having a national flag just because it shares a common currency with Germany, although both also share a second, EU banner. I imagine that 'United Earth' works along similar grounds, which is why the UK still has a flag in Star Trek's future. It isn't so much a reflection on the UK in Star Trek's time, but more a retention of a cultural tradition.
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Old October 12 2013, 09:07 PM   #100
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Lance wrote: View Post
And the EU is the perfect example of why that would be more likely than not. Europe is (in theory) all united under a single banner, a single 'government', but each individual country still retains their full sovereignty, their individual identities, and their own cultural traditions.
Well, that's not strictly accurate. For one thing, the European Union is not a government or sovereign state in its own right; it is, rather, a new kind of supranational union to which some of the responsibilities of the sovereigns have been delegated.

And what's happening in the E.U. is a prime example of why this kind of arrangement will never work in the long-term. Dividing monetary policy and fiscal policy -- giving the E.U. control of monetary policy while the national governments retain control of fiscal policy -- has been a disaster. It means that countries that really need to devalue their currency in order to recover from the economic crash, such as Greece, haven't been able to. Instead, those governments have been forced to accept demands from the German government that they dramatically slash government spending as a condition of E.U. bailout loans, even if this is against the express will of their publics and causes greater economic contraction. This in turn leads to the rise of xenophobia, nationalism, and right-wing fascist movements in the countries so victimized.

It's a really terrible system, and it's a threat to democratic governance. The E.U. is a prime example of why such a union needs to itself be sovereign, or needs to be expressly non-sovereign in nature; pooled, delegated sovereignty does not work.
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Old October 13 2013, 03:06 AM   #101
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
And United Earth has been around for 30 years by the time ENT comes into play, so I'd assume the experimentation was over by that point.
There were indication that some form of United Earth was in existence over a century prior to ENT. The United Earth concept might have been slow to build, with countries joining it gradually over time. There was also something called the New United Nations, so United Earth could have had competition for members.

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We don't want to be part of Maryland, and Maryland doesn't want to take us in.
And this would be different than many of the other states in the union how? For various section of a state not to "like each other" is common. I'm sure than after Washington's residential areas are divided between Montgomery and Prince George's counties things will be fine in just a few years.

... why should Wyoming get to be a state but not D.C. when Wyoming has fewer residents?
In that case, in term of population why don't we subdivide Los Angeles into sixteen states? With thirty-two senators. The New York metropolitan area could be thirty-seven states.

Hell, using DC as a population standard for a state, even my little Seattle could be two states.

See, the problem with DC is, it isn't a state, it's just a city, that's all it is. And Sci it's not even a very big one, Washington is something like the thirtieth largest city in the county. It has five and a half percent of the land area of the current smallest state, Rhode Island.

I don't think that too many Americans want there to be five hundred states in America, with a thousand senators.

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Old October 13 2013, 04:26 AM   #102
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

AFAIK the US is the only country on Earth with a separate government district. In all other countries, government is housed in the capital (with an A, not an O) city (a capital, by definition, is the city where the national government is located), which may or may not be the largest city by population (Canberra, AUS is smaller than either Sydney or Melbourne, Brasilia in Brazil is much smaller than Rio de Janeiro).

Although it may be speculated that perhaps when the united earth government was first formed, a condition for its formation was that it should not be housed in any particular country, so it's possible that it woud be in a separate district for that reason.
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Old October 13 2013, 04:38 AM   #103
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

maneth wrote: View Post
AFAIK the US is the only country on Earth with a separate government district.
Uh . . . no.
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Old October 13 2013, 04:57 AM   #104
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post
maneth wrote: View Post
AFAIK the US is the only country on Earth with a separate government district.
Uh . . . no.
Thanks for the clarification, I should have checked before posting. Still, it's slightly over 10 percent of the world's sovereign nations, so most countries manage well enough without a separate government district.

That said, the land occupied by the UN headquarters building and the building spaces is administered by the UN, not a part of US territory, even though the UN has agreed to follow US legislation in exchange for access to utilities and emergency services.
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Old October 13 2013, 07:02 PM   #105
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
We don't want to be part of Maryland, and Maryland doesn't want to take us in.
And this would be different than many of the other states in the union how? For various section of a state not to "like each other" is common.
Because you're talking about defying the democratically-expressed will of the people of the District of Columbia and of its democratically-elected government, both of whom have made it clear on numerous occasions that they want statehood rather than retrocession. Statehood is the explicitly-stated goal of the District government, and the people have twice approved state constitutions in District referenda.

You're attempting to compare that basic act of democratic self-determination to minor regional rivalries that no one seriously gives a shit about.

... why should Wyoming get to be a state but not D.C. when Wyoming has fewer residents?
In that case, in term of population why don't we subdivide Los Angeles into sixteen states?
You're moving the goalposts. Answer the question: Why does one district get to be a state but not another when it has fewer people?

See, the problem with DC is, it isn't a state, it's just a city,
Berlin is a city -- and a state. There's no contradiction between the two.

Although, as I said before, really the entire Washington Metropolitan Area should be allowed to secede from Maryland and Virginia and form a state. That would solve the ridiculous problem of people whose lives revolve around D.C. having to send delegates to Annapolis or Richmond. So in that scenario, we would see a new state with roughly five million residents and multiple cities, including Washington, Silver Spring, Arlington, Alexandria, Bethesda, etc.
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