RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,056
Posts: 5,431,558
Members: 24,924
Currently online: 614
Newest member: luisgarcia

TrekToday headlines

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16

Beltran Introduces Shakespeare To Theater Group
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16

Burton To Be Honored at Facets Boo! Bash
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 9 2013, 09:03 AM   #46
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.
If it's not the point, then why bring up that particular example in the first place?
I merely stated what kind of impression that new UFP flag made on me when I first saw it.
Everyone else did not have that kind of allusion, so that was obviously not an issue worthy of further evaluation.

Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).

This inevitably brings up the question what the filmmakers tried to convey to the audience by changing the original flag.
  • in the future the workers rule and/or have equal rights? (conclusion: the workers ruled and/or did have equal rights in the old nations of Earth carrying the cogwheel in their flags)
  • China plays an important part in the UFP of the 22nd (foundation of UFP?) and/or 23rd Century? (odd we don't see that many Asian actors in this future)
I'd like to learn what had been the reason to add the cogwheel (as a mechanical component it had its practical use in the 20th Century and therefore relects as a symbol in flags originating from that era) in a 22nd or 23rd Century flag.

For a flag of the 23rd Century it looks weird, as a political symbol it's not without controversy. That's the essential question it comes down to.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 02:10 PM   #47
Balrog
Commodore
 
Balrog's Avatar
 
Location: Balrog
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

In this timeline, John Gill designed the Federation's flag.
__________________
Anybody got some peppermint?
Balrog was Lloyd Dobler
Balrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 05:04 PM   #48
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'd like to learn what had been the reason to add the cogwheel (as a mechanical component it had its practical use in the 20th Century and therefore relects as a symbol in flags originating from that era) in a 22nd or 23rd Century flag.
Mister Spacely is a lot more influential in the JJ verse than he was in the prime universe.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 06:31 PM   #49
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'd like to learn what had been the reason to add the cogwheel (as a mechanical component it had its practical use in the 20th Century and therefore relects as a symbol in flags originating from that era) in a 22nd or 23rd Century flag.
Mister Spacely is a lot more influential in the JJ verse than he was in the prime universe.
I'm so old I got that!
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 06:32 PM   #50
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Me too.
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 11:07 PM   #51
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).
As far as I know, there is not cogwheel in any Chinese flag.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
This inevitably brings up the question what the filmmakers tried to convey to the audience by changing the original flag.[LIST][*]in the future the workers rule and/or have equal rights? (conclusion: the workers ruled and/or did have equal rights in the old nations of Earth carrying the cogwheel in their flags)
Uh... what?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
[*]China plays an important part in the UFP of the 22nd (foundation of UFP?) and/or 23rd Century?
Given my first comment, this makes no sense.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
For a flag of the 23rd Century it looks weird, as a political symbol it's not without controversy. That's the essential question it comes down to.
Actually, the cogwheel is not weirder than the olive branches.

Do the branches mean that the Federation supports Biblical literalism? (You know, the original olive branch story.) Does it support Athena as the main goddess of the Federation? (olive trees were sacred to her.) Does it mean the Federation is inspired by the peacenik generation ideals?

I don't think so. It's just a vague symbol of peace that would be understood by viewers, just as the cogwheel is a symbol of labour and cooperation. The only controversy is in your mind.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10 2013, 06:38 AM   #52
WinstonSmith
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?
Not necessarily, but a federation emblem featuring a stylised eagle, an ear of wheat and a cog would definitely have... allusions to various totalitarian regimes. Indeed, even as the current emblem is an allusion to the UN

As for the cog as a symbol, it definitely does have communist connotations, that was one of the first things I thought of when it was pointed out. However, having said that, I hadn't noticed it until then, and I'm perfectly willing to see it as simply someone in the art department going 'oh, that pattern looks cool' and nothing more

personally I think its a bit weird that the emblem of an interstellar government of hundreds of worlds is so similar to one of an intergovernmental agency of ancient Earth anyway, but hey, it fits with the 'human centric' star trek universe, and is more relatable to a contemporary audience, so I can at least understand it
WinstonSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10 2013, 10:36 AM   #53
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).
As far as I know, there is not cogwheel in any Chinese flag.
Correction: Not in the flag but pretty obvious in the national "emblem" of China.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
For a flag of the 23rd Century it looks weird, as a political symbol it's not without controversy. That's the essential question it comes down to.
Actually, the cogwheel is not weirder than the olive branches.
While the olive branches may be equally weird (hence Franz Joseph suggested in his UFP proposal should reflect a male and female humanoid profile) they obviously have no ideological connotation which obviously is the reason why "we" do have the United Nations flag as it is (and without a cogwheel).

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
It's just a vague symbol of peace that would be understood by viewers, just as the cogwheel is a symbol of labour and cooperation. The only controversy is in your mind.
None of this provides a possible clue why the filmmakers changed the previous UFP flag by adding a cogwheel.

By your own reasoning this would have been a good opportunity from an "in-universe" point of view to get rid of the "earthbound" olive branches. Instead we got an archaic cogwheel added.

No problem with that assuming Vulcans and/or Tellarites and/or Andorians also used cogwheels in their original national flags. Looks like the best rationalization I can come up with.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10 2013, 10:17 PM   #54
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Next I wondered what the cogwheel and in a broader sense symbolized in national flags: industrial production or the industrial proletariat (e.g. national flag of China).
As far as I know, there is not cogwheel in any Chinese flag.
Correction: Not in the flag but pretty obvious in the national "emblem" of China.
I see. A small cogwheel buried in the lower part of the emblem. I doubt that it means "China plays an important part in the UFP". As I've shown, the Italian emblem has a much more prominent cogwheel. Does it mean that Italy plays an even bigger role in the UFP? I sure hope not, for the Federation's sake!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Actually, the cogwheel is not weirder than the olive branches.
While the olive branches may be equally weird (hence Franz Joseph suggested in his UFP proposal should reflect a male and female humanoid profile) they obviously have no ideological connotation which obviously is the reason why "we" do have the United Nations flag as it is (and without a cogwheel).
Obviously, the reason is that the UN flag was designed by a western citizen. The olive branches symbol is just as ideological as the cogwheel, you just don't recognize it because it's your ideology.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
No problem with that assuming Vulcans and/or Tellarites and/or Andorians also used cogwheels in their original national flags. Looks like the best rationalization I can come up with.
I just don't see the need for a rationalization. They tinkered a bit with the flag. Real countries do it all the time. So what?
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 05:39 PM   #55
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

New seal then for the fans...

__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 05:43 PM   #56
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 06:10 PM   #57
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

It's worse than we thought...the UAW takes over the Federation in the future? Look, look, I tell you a cog emblem! No....no, the Machinist are in on it too! My god, how far does Abram's conspiracy to indoctrinate our youth go?!
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 06:13 PM   #58
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

I approve of this because it seems to fit current fandom to a tee.

Opus wrote: View Post
New seal then for the fans...

__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 06:29 PM   #59
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Come on - mocking movies, plots, opinions or arguments is all kosher, but swipes at fans / fan groups is something I'd rather not have.
__________________
The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but
that the lightning ain't distributed right.
— Mark Twain
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 11:25 PM   #60
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Sorry...

<looks at ground and kicks rock with shoe>
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.