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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old October 4 2013, 12:16 AM   #91
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It's true, Voyager didn't have story continuity
Actually, it's NOT TRUE that Voyager didn't have story continuity.
Other than the Seska/Kazon thing in seasons 1-2, facts established in episodes had a consistent pattern of directly contradicting each other. Call that story continuity?
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Old October 4 2013, 03:37 AM   #92
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ Would you mind showing me specific examples of story points (and no, stuff like inconsistent with regards to details concerning things like supply resources, crew compliment, and costuming errors don't count) that were contradicted or ignored as the series went on?
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Old October 4 2013, 04:58 AM   #93
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
^ Would you mind showing me specific examples of story points (and no, stuff like inconsistent with regards to details concerning things like supply resources, crew compliment, and costuming errors don't count) that were contradicted or ignored as the series went on?
Well there was the EMH all of a sudden having a backup copy in "Living Witness" despite having an entire b-plot of a previous episode devoted to explaining that it was impossible to make a copy of the Doctor.
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Old October 4 2013, 05:04 AM   #94
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ I wouldn't consider that to represent a story discontinuity, but even if it is, one would have to cite many other instances in order to demonstrate that Voyager constantly ignored or contradicted story points.
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Old October 4 2013, 05:15 AM   #95
Guy Gardener
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

My favourite...

Janeway in Future's End "Really I have no idea what my family was up to in the 20th century."

Janeway in 11:59 "Shannon O'Donnel is my favourite 20th century hero relative."

But DW, it's the (almost) zero bleedover into the following weeks adventure no matter how traumatic the event was or how many crewmen died just days or hours earlier.

And your reply is "but that's an episodic story telling format!"

But seriously, there are levels of suspensions of disbbelief and then there are depths of suspension of disbelief.

The killing game lasted a month, the crew with fake memories forced to kill and frakk each other, leaving corpses and unwanted pregnancies everywhere... You don't think there was a game where they hunted Naomi?In the wake of all that... The following week is Vis a Vis about body jumping alien with a holodeck addiction?

3 quarters of the ship had been turned into a hol0odeck, and suddenly then were back down to two again and... After the Killing Game, you would think that Voyager would have got rid of it's holo decks.

Just weird.
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Old October 4 2013, 05:51 AM   #96
Anwar
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

BruntRIP wrote: View Post
DigificWriter wrote: View Post
^ Would you mind showing me specific examples of story points (and no, stuff like inconsistent with regards to details concerning things like supply resources, crew compliment, and costuming errors don't count) that were contradicted or ignored as the series went on?
Well there was the EMH all of a sudden having a backup copy in "Living Witness" despite having an entire b-plot of a previous episode devoted to explaining that it was impossible to make a copy of the Doctor.
They made a backup of the Doctor in between episodes, and then lost the backup similarly between episodes and couldn't make another one.

Being on the move means they couldn't meet the same people over and over again and deal with the same places over and over again.
Which really limited the show.

But they could have established a richer culture aboard the ship, had a strong cast of secondary characters, etc.
NuBSG only got this to work by having there be tens of thousands of people in the fleet and dozens upon dozens of ships to visit. They didn't need to visit alien worlds because the other ships could stand-in as their alien worlds.

Any non-main cast crewmembers for the rest of the series who were important in one episode might have showed up and said hi once or twice but basically disappeared.
Just like TOS then, only no one ever complains there.
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Old October 4 2013, 06:21 AM   #97
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Actually, TOS responded to fanmail, if they got "enough" positive feed back on a character, like Kyle or Kevin Riley, they were invited back... How people were paid back then was different and less punitive to the show runners.

A hundred and 50 people living in the space of a dozen Winnebagos?

It must have been almost impossible for all the off camera characters that were on the ship the whole time every episode to only make an appearance in one single episode...
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Old October 4 2013, 08:06 AM   #98
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I have a correction to make concerning the episode order I outlined earlier. I inverted Investigations and Lifesigns based on their production numbers without realizing that, despite Investigations being produced prior to Lifesigns, it is actually set after it.
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Old October 4 2013, 08:08 AM   #99
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
They made a backup of the Doctor in between episodes, and then lost the backup similarly between episodes and couldn't make another one.
So your argument is that any continuity errors in VOY aren't really continuity errors because of some theoretical events taking place between episodes? Really? How convenient.
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Old October 4 2013, 09:46 AM   #100
Guy Gardener
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

It takes half a brain cell to figure out that mobile emitter technology was used to make the back up module.

Harry couldn't make a Doctor from scratch, but maybe if he had a working model in front of him, he could copy that. Which means that the only reason they never made a copy of the doctor when he was there in front of them was because of some missaffected sense of respect.

The Doctor was also stolen in Critical Care, early in season 7 and Voyager's crew still went to rescue that light bulb, risking their lives rather than fabricating a copy.
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Old October 4 2013, 02:45 PM   #101
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

BruntRIP wrote: View Post
So your argument is that any continuity errors in VOY aren't really continuity errors because of some theoretical events taking place between episodes? Really? How convenient.
I never said that, so stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I don't have the time or the energy right now to sit down and document every single time Voyager made a direct or indirect reference or callback to the events of previous episodes outside of multi-parter episodes, but it happened frequently enough that it demonstrated a pattern of continuity that belies the idea that the show was constantly contradicting itself.

Was the show perfect in respecting its own continuity? No, it wasn't, but that doesn't mean it was openly and frequently disregarding things that happened either.
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Old October 4 2013, 03:22 PM   #102
dub
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
BruntRIP wrote: View Post
So your argument is that any continuity errors in VOY aren't really continuity errors because of some theoretical events taking place between episodes? Really? How convenient.
I never said that, so stop trying to put words in my mouth.
Calm down, Digi. He was quoting Anwar, not you.

But people do often use "theoretical events" to explain away inconsistencies. I think some people even enjoy coming up with those things as sort of a hobby or a game. I think the proper term is "in-universe explanation."

I'm into season 4 and I will say that I'm seeing a lot more attempts at continuity/arcs than I remembered when I sporadically watched Voyager during its original run. My short-term memory works better than other parts of my brain , so I can point to "Message in a Bottle" through "The Killing Game" 2-parter as an example. That's 6 back-to-back episodes, which I think is more than we ever saw with TNG. IIRC (I really should put IIRC in every post). Most of those deal with the Hirogen, messages from Starfleet, and/or Seven's problems integrating properly into the crew. And one or more of those carry over into another episode in that set. So I think those 3 storylines tie these 6 episodes together quite nicely. Though I'm still in Part I of "The Killing Game," which so far is quite puzzling to me but I'm hoping it gets better.
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Old October 4 2013, 06:08 PM   #103
Anwar
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

The fact that folks care about something as petty and silly as the EMH back-up rather than enjoy what a good story "Living Witness" was, really says more about them than Voyager. You get a great, touching story with good acting, and it all means NOTHING because you can't get over something petty and silly like the Backup.
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Old October 4 2013, 07:28 PM   #104
BruntFCA
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
The fact that folks care about something as petty and silly as the EMH back-up rather than enjoy what a good story "Living Witness" was, really says more about them than Voyager. You get a great, touching story with good acting, and it all means NOTHING because you can't get over something petty and silly like the Backup.
I don't particularly care about the EMH back-up TBH, and "Living Witness" is actually my favorite VOY episode and one of my favorite episodes from any Trek series. DigificWriter asked for an example of VOY contradicting itself so I gave him one.

I don't want to come off as being too negative as VOY did have some nice bits of continuity, some of which i'm still just noticing as I re-watch various episodes. A few months ago I was re-watching "Alter Ego" and noticed a weird scene with Tom, B'Elanna, and Vorik on the holodeck that didn't really seem to fit into the episode, it wasn't until I looked at the episode order that I realized they were subtly setting up "Blood Fever".
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Old October 4 2013, 08:14 PM   #105
Harvey
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Actually, TOS responded to fanmail, if they got "enough" positive feed back on a character, like Kyle or Kevin Riley, they were invited back...
The only appearance of either of those characters that was a result of fan response was John Winston's cameo as Kyle on the Reliant in Star Trek II.
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