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Old October 17 2013, 10:47 PM   #301
MakeshiftPython
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
@MakeshiftPython: Do you understand what the term 'Serialized Procedural' means? You seem to be condemning Voyager for not being what you thought it should've been rather than looking at it and accepting it for what it was.

I used to have a similar attitude, but realized that if it is judged on its own merits as the type of show it actually is rather than the type of show it was originally envisioned as being, it actually works very well. It might not be everyone's 'cup of tea' when accurately judged as the Serialized Procedural that it is, but that's an entirely different thing than dismissing it because it wasn't more like, say, DS9, B5, or BSG, because that's not the kind of show it ended up being even if it was originally envisioned as being such.

@Guy: If I were going to compare and contrast The X-Files, Fringe, and Voyager based on how well they reflect the Serialized Procedural formula, I'd say that X-Files struck the best balance, with Voyager striking the next-best balance, and Fringe starting out striking a good balance before sort of morphing into a more heavily serialized show.
I've judged it as a "serialized procedural", and it sucked at it. Sometimes it got too procedural with the inane spacial anomalies that mean nothing for the characters. It's not even good at being serialized, like how Janeway makes a deal with the Hirogen, the kind of deal she condemned about making with the Kazon in the first two seasons.
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Old October 17 2013, 10:55 PM   #302
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ Okay. I personally disagree with that assessment, but to each their own.

I will say that I would've liked to have seen more elements of serialization when it came to certain characters (the crewmen from Learning Curve) and alien species (the Vaadwaur), but still am able to enjoy the show as-is.
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Old October 17 2013, 10:59 PM   #303
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

They do something about nothing until they're surprised by a woogy in the beginning of the episode, the woogy pwns then treating them like a b####s, until they have a bright idea, which they use a 20th century metaphor to explain the 24th century technology gimickiness, which is when then they win out or save the day, and then tell a super cheesy joke or a homespun a moral value everyone should live by. Roll credits.

Reset button!

Next episode same as the last.

Above is the procedure for all Star Trek with GLARING and MANY exceptions.

Digfic, good doesn't mean anything unless you know what bad is (And Poor is worse than bad and excellent is better than good.), I'm just asking from your gut a couple shows that have poorer continuity, no research, just pull some genre shows from our ass that hurt you or insulted your intelligence with the ham fisted shit they tried to pull on your watch.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:12 PM   #304
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

@Guy: Okay, how about this: The serialized elements of Bones' first season were thrown totally out of whack because of the way it was aired and presented, and to an even worse degree than happened on Voyager with regards to Seasons 1 and 2, and there was no reason for such to have been the case.

@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.

There's nothing wrong with that type of show, but it's not the same type of show as Voyager even though it might seem like it at first glance.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:18 PM   #305
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

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@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.
In the beginning of this thread, that is exactly what I said about Voyager.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:22 PM   #306
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

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DigificWriter wrote: View Post
@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.
In the beginning of this thread, that is exactly what I said about Voyager.
I know, but I think I've been able to disprove that. If you disagree, that's fine, but I still stand by my analysis of Voyager as being a Serialized Procedural rather than an Episodic Series.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:29 PM   #307
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

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@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.
I'm not sure I see it that way. Nearly every appearance of Q, for example, builds upon what happened previously. Each appearance of the Borg is a sequel to the previous episodes with the race. There is a serialized narrative about Worf, Duras, and Gowron (which ends up intersecting with a serialized narrative about the Romulans, which is connected to "Yesterday's Enterprise," which is connected to "Skin of Evil," etc.).
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Old October 17 2013, 11:39 PM   #308
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

You made convincing argument Digfic, but you haven't proved anything. You didn't surprise us with any revelations or untoward hidden/forgotten gems. It was nice to see it all set out, but what Voyager brought to the party was really quite limited.

We agree that Voyager has the same level of continuity, only you call it good and I call it bad.

You have lower standards.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:47 PM   #309
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Harvey wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I see it that way. Nearly every appearance of Q, for example, builds upon what happened previously. Each appearance of the Borg is a sequel to the previous episodes with the race. There is a serialized narrative about Worf, Duras, and Gowron (which ends up intersecting with a serialized narrative about the Romulans, which is connected to "Yesterday's Enterprise," which is connected to "Skin of Evil," etc.).
Okay. I can see your argument, but, with TNG, I never felt like I was 'missing something' by not having seen every individual 'piece' of the arcs you mentioned, but would feel like I was missing out on important info if I were to have seen, say, Faces without having seen Phage, or Deadlock without having seen Elogium, Tattoo, and Dreadnought.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
We agree that Voyager has the same level of continuity, only you call it good and I call it bad.
Actually, I think I've made it clear that I think the series had a far greater degree of continuity than you do, and have tried to demonstrate why I hold that opinion.

This is definitely a case where we're going to have to agree to disagree, which is fine.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:52 PM   #310
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

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BruntRIP wrote: View Post
Honestly other then the brief kazon arc VOY really wasn't any more serialized then TNG and was definitely a step back from DS9
I think I've been able to sufficiently demonstrate otherwise.

You also really can't compare DS9 and Voyager because, as I've noted and tried to demonstrate, they're very different. The former is a Babylon 5-style 'televised novel' (although it plays out its narrative differently than B5) and the latter is a Serialized Procedural.
But isn't that the point VOY's premise indicates it should be a televised novel (to use your phrase), yet we didn't get that. So it could be said it failed to live upto it's premise.
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Old October 18 2013, 12:01 AM   #311
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

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But isn't that the point VOY's premise indicates it should be a televised novel (to use your phrase), yet we didn't get that. So it could be said it failed to live upto it's premise.
That's really a subjective question. I personally think Voyager's premise works just fine with the series being a Serialized Procedural, especially given that's as originally conceived, it was envisioned as being a 'televised novel'.

I do think that the show would've been less polarizing if it had initially been conceived as being the Serialized Procedural that it is, though, instead of 'morphing' into that form in execution.
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Old October 18 2013, 01:24 AM   #312
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Lets talk about how you prove that you are right and other people are wrong.

They get down on their knees and kiss your feet.

The evidence you supplied that voyagers continuity is good is exactly the identical evidence I would supply (copy and paste) to say that it is sparse and intermittent.

This is completely a matter of opinion.

I'm not kissing your feet today.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; October 18 2013 at 02:07 AM.
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Old October 18 2013, 01:46 AM   #313
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ I'm not really trying to 'prove anyone wrong' here, merely to demonstrate how and why I believe that the perception that Voyager doesn't have continuity and serialization is, in a lot of ways, an inaccurate one.
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Old October 18 2013, 02:07 AM   #314
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Well if you figure out how to do that, let me know.
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Old October 18 2013, 02:10 AM   #315
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

The first two seasons is probably the only time the show seriously had a story arc going with the Kazons and Seska. I admire the attempt, but I don't think they did a good job and they certainly didn't conclude it well either.
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