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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old October 11 2013, 09:04 AM   #256
Harvey
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

You could probably make a similar list for the original series -- which wouldn't negate the fact that Star Trek was largely an episodic program. I'm not going to make that list -- my time is better spent on other endeavors (like, say, job hunting!) -- but I think it could be done.

One other point, though. Saying, for example, that the appearance of the Da Vinci hologram in 'Concerning Flight' is an example of continuity because the character previously appeared in 'Scorpion' seems to be stretching what we're all arguing about here. Outside of the addition of Seven of Nine (and the subtraction of Kes), is anything the character does contingent upon one episode happening before the other? I mean, Kevin Riley appears in two TOS episodes, but it really makes no difference if you watch 'The Naked Time' first or skip ahead to 'The Conscience of the King.'

That rambling probably makes more sense in my head, but hey, it's late.
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Old October 11 2013, 10:00 AM   #257
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I think if there had to be more continuity in VOY, it should have been done in a similar fashion as BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER where each season has a unique story arc. For example, the first season would have VOY deal Kazon space and have that resolved by the season finale (stretching that to two made it seem like Voyager was going in circles). When the next season starts, a new arc begins. When Seven is introduced, the rest of the season should have been about the crew journeying through Borg space without skipping it via Kes' powers. After that, you would never see the Borg ever again, with maybe one or two exceptions if you had a very good story like "Survival Instinct". They did kind of have this approach like with the Hirogen in S4 and with the Malon in S5, but it was more scattershoot and there was no acknowledgement of the crew finally passing through their space.

To narrow it down, this is probably how I would have approached each season:

S1: Kazon
S2: Vidiians
S3: Hirogen
S4: Borg
S5: Krenim (Year of Hell)
S6: Malon
S7: A new antagonist.
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Old October 11 2013, 10:05 AM   #258
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Giving each season a unique story arc would have been excellent.
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Old October 11 2013, 10:10 AM   #259
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Makes more sense for VOY than it did for ENT, even though I thought they handled the Xindi arc fine. That's kind of what VOY should have done, while having the last few seconds of the season finale hint at the upcoming threat but not giving too much away so that writers won't be cornered, which is what ENT unfortunately did with that alien Nazi.
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Old October 11 2013, 01:26 PM   #260
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
But you do understand I just said that you believe that Voyager is a 200 pert story and you just proved that? And I believe in most of the continuity that you found, but I don't think it's good enough or enough to be compared to Buffy or Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactia where 90 percent of the episodes seemed seemless like between Scorpion and the gift, or between Day of Honor and Revulsion.
I have never once compared Voyager to the shows you just mentioned.

Every time I've brought up anything else in relation to Voyager, the term I've used is 'serialized procedural', which is the genre into which shows like Bones, The Mentalist, the new Hawaii 5-0, Elementary, the CSIs, and a plethora of other similar shows fall.

Voyager takes that formula and applies it to Star Trek and Science Fiction. Enterprise does as well, but it does it in a different fashion than Voyager did.

One argument that I have made and tried to demonstrate is that there's not quite as much 'episodic flexibility' as the producers intended there to be simply because of the show's nature as a 'serialized procedural'.

Voyager isn't something you have to be religiously watching in order to avoid being lost, but there IS a 'proper' order in which to watch the show in order to get the very most out of it, just as there is with the other 'serialized procedural' series I mentioned.
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Old October 11 2013, 02:55 PM   #261
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I wonder how Voyager would have continued had they not that "TNG was 7 seasons, so all other shows have only 7 seasons" thing.
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Old October 11 2013, 04:18 PM   #262
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Well, Voyager's premise was never really that sustainable to begin with. So without the "7 Seasons" thing it probably would've lasted only a few seasons before finding a way home.

Really, every "Lost Ship" series from the last 40 years worth remembering weren't that long compared to TNG:

1) Blakes' Seven was only meant to last 3 seasons, they got one more so it was 4.

2) LEXX only had 4 seasons, the first of which was made up of 4 TV movies.

3) NuBSG ran out of steam after 2 seasons, and limped on for 2 more until it hit 4.

4) Stargate Universe barely made it to 2.

Really, the whole "Lost in Space" subgenre doesn't lend itself to a lengthy story because there just isn't enough there to sustain anything.

I think if there had to be more continuity in VOY, it should have been done in a similar fashion as BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER where each season has a unique story arc.
That might have been nice, but frankly the best route to take would've been to have them be stuck in one general area for the entire series where all their aliens co-exist so they could tell stories about them criss-crossing with one another instead of going one at a time.
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Old October 15 2013, 04:46 PM   #263
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I was putting together a post for another forum about Voyager's nature as a Serialized Procedural, and realized that, because I haven't seen every episode, rearranging episodes largely in Production Order had kind of unintentionally undermined my position concerning the order the series ought to be watched in in order to get the very most out of it and emphasize its nature as a Serialized Procedural, and therefore needed some revisions, so I looked at episode synopses on Memory Alpha and revised things as follows:
* Season 3's Coda and Blood Fever should be watched in their Original Airing Order
* Season 5's Infinite Regress and Thirty Days should be watched in their Original Airing Order (this means there's a Stardate discrepancy, but it's more important to maintain continuity with regards to Paris' rank)
* Drive, Repression, and Imperfection should be watched as Episodes 2, 3, and 4, respectively, of Season 7 (discarding both Production Order and Original Airing Order in favor of Stardate consistency and continuity as it concerns the Delta Flyer II and Tom and B'Elanna's wedding)

Everything else can and should be watched in the revised order I posted earlier.
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Old October 15 2013, 10:04 PM   #264
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I wonder how Voyager would have continued had they not that "TNG was 7 seasons, so all other shows have only 7 seasons" thing.
In cancellation with a rushed ending on par with TATV?
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Old October 15 2013, 10:20 PM   #265
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

The series could have finished fine, perfectly even, after Terra Prime.

What must have happened was that Berman got back from his 2 year long holiday and said "Fuck you! You can't just end the show without me! No! No! Enterprise is MINE ! MINE! MINE! No! One more, one more episode which I will write, and then it'll be the end for realz... Um, oh... Since I don't have any new ideas there's this dusty script I we workshopped 2 years ago but turned out to be alittle shit so we tabled it for the time being... YES! My most greatest and susseccful idea ever!"

You know the tuth isn't too far off this.
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Old October 15 2013, 10:44 PM   #266
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
To narrow it down, this is probably how I would have approached each season:

S1: Kazon
S2: Vidiians
S3: Hirogen
S4: Borg
S5: Krenim (Year of Hell)
S6: Malon
S7: A new antagonist.
I like this idea, although I would have been royally pissed if we had an entire season "Year of Hell," which turned out to be a total reset at the end of the season. Without reset, perhaps killing off a major character (or having them in a coma for a few episodes, or something), plus a badly damaged USS Voyager (that still looks in bad shape) with depleted supplies at the beginning of the next season? Now that would have been awesome.

I just finished "In the Flesh" toward the beginning of S5. Species 90210 (or whatever they're called) was shaping up to be a Dominion-like foe, at least until the end of this episode. I think if they kept the species more mysterious and made them the S7 antagonist, perhaps also popping up here and there in prior seasons, that would have been possibly interesting. Then perhaps at the end they could figure out a way to use fluid space to gush their way back to the alpha quadrant without turning into lizards.
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Old October 15 2013, 10:58 PM   #267
Guy Gardener
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

If it Took Captain Janeway, or Captain Chakotay a year to bisect Krenim Space... Even though depending on the timelines, the size of Krenim space is entirely variable, it should haven taken a lot longer to circumnavigate the Krenim Imperium and put it in the rear view mirror than to just charge through.

A year, almost a year, of Humdrum and tedium could still have taken place between Scientific Method and Random Thoughts.
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Old October 16 2013, 12:24 AM   #268
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
But you do understand I just said that you believe that Voyager is a 200 pert story and you just proved that? And I believe in most of the continuity that you found, but I don't think it's good enough or enough to be compared to Buffy or Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactia where 90 percent of the episodes seemed seemless like between Scorpion and the gift, or between Day of Honor and Revulsion.
I have never once compared Voyager to the shows you just mentioned.

Every time I've brought up anything else in relation to Voyager, the term I've used is 'serialized procedural', which is the genre into which shows like Bones, The Mentalist, the new Hawaii 5-0, Elementary, the CSIs, and a plethora of other similar shows fall.

Voyager takes that formula and applies it to Star Trek and Science Fiction. Enterprise does as well, but it does it in a different fashion than Voyager did.

One argument that I have made and tried to demonstrate is that there's not quite as much 'episodic flexibility' as the producers intended there to be simply because of the show's nature as a 'serialized procedural'.

Voyager isn't something you have to be religiously watching in order to avoid being lost, but there IS a 'proper' order in which to watch the show in order to get the very most out of it, just as there is with the other 'serialized procedural' series I mentioned.
But as others have said it's not that VOY didn't have any serialisation is just that it should have been more heavily serialised. VOY differs from the other Trek shows (well at least the ones that preceeded it) by having a distictive goal. To get home. So each episode is a sense is a chapter in a book telling that story. If when reading a book you are told something in chapter 3 (episode 3)then when watching chapter 101(episode 101), you expect it to remain consistant with chapter 3 (episode 3) unless you are told why something has changed.

A fair few of VOY critisims could have been avoid by a line or two of dialouge, background extras repairing parts of the ship etc.. Give us a sense that without access to a starfleet repair yard they are struggling to keep the ship in top spec, it nearly always just seemed too easy, a seemingly endless supply of shuttlecraft, the crew number flucturating up and down from one episode to the next. Didn't they think they had killed Carey off before brining him back (just to kill him). It's all these little details that detract from the show. Sometimes the little details are important.

Characters (at least) giving the perception that they are flip-flopping from upholding the regs to screw the regs. Upholding your principals sometimes makes thinks harder for yourself. My view is pick one and run with it but be consistant, if you want to change have something meaningul happen to the character to cause the change.

VOY did have some great episodes, but it had far more average episdoes. Sure the FX is good, but good FX cannot replace a so-so story. Conversely a good stroy can overcome bad FX. It's almost as if it was playing it safe, sure the network might want TNG 2.0 (or in some regards TOS 3.0), but VOY unlike TNG was competeting against other genre shows.

Now as I said VOY wasn't all bad, but for this viewer it could have been so much more. For those that enjoyed it for what it was, great for you. We all have different tastes, and sometimes what we've watched before can impact on what we expect from a show, for someone who thinks this story line is recycled from X, Y and Z show, to someone else it might be something more fresh. After all VOY might be many's first introduction to ST whilst for others their second or third.
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Old October 16 2013, 01:12 AM   #269
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

bud wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
To narrow it down, this is probably how I would have approached each season:

S1: Kazon
S2: Vidiians
S3: Hirogen
S4: Borg
S5: Krenim (Year of Hell)
S6: Malon
S7: A new antagonist.
I like this idea, although I would have been royally pissed if we had an entire season "Year of Hell," which turned out to be a total reset at the end of the season. Without reset, perhaps killing off a major character (or having them in a coma for a few episodes, or something), plus a badly damaged USS Voyager (that still looks in bad shape) with depleted supplies at the beginning of the next season? Now that would have been awesome.

I just finished "In the Flesh" toward the beginning of S5. Species 90210 (or whatever they're called) was shaping up to be a Dominion-like foe, at least until the end of this episode. I think if they kept the species more mysterious and made them the S7 antagonist, perhaps also popping up here and there in prior seasons, that would have been possibly interesting. Then perhaps at the end they could figure out a way to use fluid space to gush their way back to the alpha quadrant without turning into lizards.
The reset at the end of YEAR OF HELL would have never happened after my run. I very much prefer what we saw in "Before and After" with the crew still feeling the effects of that whole year in a sense, maybe actually having one or two dead. I do like the idea of Chakotay being a captain, he was so underdeveloped over the whole series that a change like that might have helped him step up, making Tuvok the first officer.

Funny thing, I just finished "In the Flesh" last night as well. I'm not sure how 8472 would have worked if they kept them as antagonists. It was very expensive back in the 90s to pull that off, heck that's why BSG invented human looking Cylons so they didn't have to use the robotic Cylons so much.
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Old October 16 2013, 01:58 AM   #270
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But as others have said it's not that VOY didn't have any serialisation is just that it should have been more heavily serialised. VOY differs from the other Trek shows (well at least the ones that preceeded it) by having a distictive goal. To get home. So each episode is a sense is a chapter in a book telling that story. If when reading a book you are told something in chapter 3 (episode 3)then when watching chapter 101(episode 101), you expect it to remain consistant with chapter 3 (episode 3) unless you are told why something has changed.

A fair few of VOY critisims could have been avoid by a line or two of dialouge, background extras repairing parts of the ship etc.. Give us a sense that without access to a starfleet repair yard they are struggling to keep the ship in top spec, it nearly always just seemed too easy, a seemingly endless supply of shuttlecraft, the crew number flucturating up and down from one episode to the next. Didn't they think they had killed Carey off before brining him back (just to kill him). It's all these little details that detract from the show. Sometimes the little details are important.

Characters (at least) giving the perception that they are flip-flopping from upholding the regs to screw the regs. Upholding your principals sometimes makes thinks harder for yourself. My view is pick one and run with it but be consistant, if you want to change have something meaningul happen to the character to cause the change.

VOY did have some great episodes, but it had far more average episdoes. Sure the FX is good, but good FX cannot replace a so-so story. Conversely a good stroy can overcome bad FX. It's almost as if it was playing it safe, sure the network might want TNG 2.0 (or in some regards TOS 3.0), but VOY unlike TNG was competeting against other genre shows.

Now as I said VOY wasn't all bad, but for this viewer it could have been so much more. For those that enjoyed it for what it was, great for you. We all have different tastes, and sometimes what we've watched before can impact on what we expect from a show, for someone who thinks this story line is recycled from X, Y and Z show, to someone else it might be something more fresh. After all VOY might be many's first introduction to ST whilst for others their second or third.
Very articulate post, even though I disagree with the idea that Voyager needed more serialization than it had because, as I've tried to point out, there was actually quite a bit of serialization as well as continuity.

I used to be of the mindset that Voyager ought to have done a lot more with its premise, but have since come to appreciate the series for what it was, especially after realizing that, despite the Series Bible indicating that it was to be more of a DS9-type series, it ended up being a Serialized Procedural along the lines of stuff like Bones, The Mentalist, etc. and managed to, by and large, strike a good balance between the serialized and the episodic, especially as I (re)watched the early episodes of Season 1, in which there's a clear progression of story and things that happen in one episode are in fact referenced in subsequent episodes, even if said references are indirect and subtle.
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