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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old October 11 2013, 12:24 AM   #241
teacake
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I'm always irritated by Trek crews fascination with the past via the holodeck. What a yawn. You know how sometimes it's not a holodeck story but there is a holodeck scene in it from which Our Heroes are seen briefly enjoying themselves before red alert sounds.. well WHY couldn't they have given us just once a really cool scene of non-human history or history which is our future (WWIII story) or ANYTHING but the endless period costumes. They could have added to Trek lore with some nice tidbits there.

If I had access to holo stories I wouldn't waste one second on earth history stories.
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Old October 11 2013, 12:29 AM   #242
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Have you seen Ed Wood?

Ed would look through the wardrobe, props, and free stock footage in the archives and then adlib a movie from that point.

Star Trek would have been fools to consistently ignore the endless warehouses of crap that they were allowed to play with...
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Old October 11 2013, 12:31 AM   #243
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

If two episodes equals continuity, then we have to consider those two blatantly Irish stereotypes, "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk", and I don't think anyone wants to even halfway consider them for anything.
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Old October 11 2013, 12:33 AM   #244
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Just grab some gogo era stuff from the endless warehouses of crap and make some shit up about Mars fashions in the early years.
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Old October 11 2013, 12:59 AM   #245
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Melakon wrote: View Post
If two episodes equals continuity, then we have to consider those two blatantly Irish stereotypes, "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk", and I don't think anyone wants to even halfway consider them for anything.
Well, what else would you call it?

Continuity is when ideas follow through.

Contiguity is when ideas follow though directly from episode to episode next with out a 6 week interruption or a 3 year vacant spot where there's no clue that what happened before matters.

After season three of Buffy, the blurb in the "Previously on Buffy" recap lasted about 5 minutes every week, so that people could keep their shit straight. Apart from the two parters on Voyager, the only time (I recall that) they said previously on Voyager was in the one where Susperia showed up, just incase you had never seen the pilot.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:02 AM   #246
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

So they weren't interested in doing a big 200 part mess wherein you couldn't miss 10 seconds of an episode without getting lost. So sue them.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:06 AM   #247
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I'm suing over TATV first.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:16 AM   #248
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
So they weren't interested in doing a big 200 part mess wherein you couldn't miss 10 seconds of an episode without getting lost. So sue them.
I'm not a fan of long arcs at all, they're too hard to follow if you can't catch them every week. ENT's fourth season hit it about right, but I wasn't able to watch it during first run at all.
All those serialized mainstream shows that always got raves I never saw either.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:29 AM   #249
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
So they weren't interested in doing a big 200 part mess wherein you couldn't miss 10 seconds of an episode without getting lost. So sue them.
Digfic's argument seems to be that Voyager WAS a big 200 part mess wherein you couldn't miss 10 seconds of an episode without getting lost.

My rebuttal is continuity is unavoidable, and there is continuity but they were really not trying that hard, and if Ron Moore is to be believed, Berman and Braga would punish anyone trying to intentionally create excessive continuity.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:39 AM   #250
Anwar
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Moore is a whiny bitch who needed scapegoats and blamed Berman and Braga for everything without bothering to check any deeper for answers to his complaints.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:52 AM   #251
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

HEY! Don't call him whiny!
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Old October 11 2013, 06:16 AM   #252
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Well Moore is a whiny bitch. Classy. Definitely no room for discussion here.
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Old October 11 2013, 06:59 AM   #253
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

@Guy: Continuity is continuity, regardless of how it's manifested.

However, just to bolster my point, let's do an episode-by-episode breakdown of Voyager Seasons 3 through 7 - in production order unless otherwise specified - and examine their connections, if any, and the continuity, if any, between them.

Season 3
The Chute:
Standalone episode

Remember:
* Is referenced in Shattered

The Swarm:
* Is referenced in Future's End, Part 2
* Features the first hints of romantic attraction between Tom and B'Elanna
* Marks the first appearance on Voyager of Doctor Lewis Zimmerman, who was previously referenced in Projections

Warlord:
* Introduces the Paxau Resort holoprogram, which reappears in The Q and the Grey, Macrocosm, Alter Ego, Blood Fever, Darkling, and Before and After
* Features the end of Neelix and Kes' relationship

The Q and the Grey:
* Second installment in the Q Civil War multi-episode arc, and consequently references the first episode in said arc, Death Wish
* Features the Paxau Resort holoprogram introduced in Warlord

Macrocosm:
* Features the return of Neelix's news program (albeit under a slightly different name)
* Features the Paxau Resort holoprogram introduced in Warlord
* References Neelix's missing lung (Phage) and the fact that holodecks run on a separate power generator (Parallax)

Alter Ego:
* Introduces the character of Ensign Vorik and establishes his interest in B'Elanna
* References the holographic version of James Moriarty from TNG's Elementary, Dear Data and Ship in a Bottle
* Features a scene between Tom and B'Elanna that is meant to foreshadow events in Blood Fever, as per producer statements
* Introduces a story element (the Vulcan game of kal-toh) that will be revisited in the episode The Omega Directive

Fair Trade:
* Features Ensign Vorik
* Features a reference to TNG's The First Duty by repeating a line that Picard says to Wesley in that episode ("The first duty of every Starfleet officer is the truth")
* Introduces a line of dialogue that is later referenced in Homestead (Janeway joking about making Neelix the Federation ambassador to the Delta Quadrant)

Blood Fever:
* Directly follows up on Vorik's interest in B'Elanna as established in Alter Ego
* Follows up on the Tom/B'Elanna romance introduced in The Swarm
* Features the first appearance of the Borg on Voyager in the form of a deceased drone, directly setting up the events of Unity

Unity:
* Follows on from Blood Fever by featuring the Borg
* Is referenced in Scorpion, Part 2
* Foreshadows the Scorpion 2-parter through dialogue (B'Elanna talking about the Borg having encountered an enemy who overpowered them) and plot ideas (the Borg corpse and the disabled Borg cube, which was intended to have been disabled by Species 8472)
* References TNG's The Best of Both Worlds 2-parter

Rise:
* Establishes a plot idea (Neelix and Tuvok's bet) that is later resolved in the episode Repression
* Re-uses or revisits story ideas used in the original Star Trek, specifically the episodes The Gallileo Seven, For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky, Amok Time, and The Tholian Web

Darkling:
* Mentions the character of T'Pau, who was introduced in the original Star Trek and later re-used in Star Trek Enterprise
* Mentions something (Harry being separated from an away team and infected with a virus) that is referenced in Favorite Son
* Is referenced in Real Life in the form of dialogue (Tom wanting to check The Doctor's systems after his recent 'tinkering')

Favorite Son:
* References something (Harry being separated from an away team and infected with a virus) that is mentioned as having happened in Darkling

Before and After:
* Directly sets up events that are later seen, albeit slightly differently, in the Year of Hell 2-parter
* Features Neelix appearing in a gold Operations uniform, which also happens in Tuvix, the Year of Hell 2-parter, and Living Witness

Real Life:
* References Darkling through dialogue (Tom wanting to check The Doctor's systems after his recent 'tinkering')

Distant Origin:
* Follows up on plot points introduced in Basics P2, Fair Trade, and Macrocosm (Ensign Hogan's bones, uniform, and skull, and the warp plasma canister that the Voth acquire)
* Is referenced in Displaced (Tom and B'Elanna's bet, which led to them visiting a Klingon exercise program on the holodeck)

Displaced:
* References Distant Origin (Tom and B'Elanna's bet, which led to them visiting a Klingon exercise program on the holodeck)

Worst-Case Scenario:
* Features the return of Seska

Scorpion, Part 1:
* Features references/call-backs to Unity
* References TNG's The Best of Both Worlds 2-parter and the Battle of Wolf 359
* Introduces the plot idea of tension between Chakotay and Janeway, which will eventually culminate in the former's considering mutiny during the events of the Equinox 2-parter
* Introduces the holographic Leonardo Da Vinci, who reappears in Concerning Flight
* Introduces the holographic version of Leonardo Da Vinci's workshop, which reappears in The Raven, Scientific Method, and The Omega Directive

Season 4
Scorpion, Part 2:
* Is referenced in Shattered
* References Unity in both dialogue and through the re-usage of plot ideas
* Introduces characters and plot ideas that are later revisited in The Raven, Dark Frontier, and The Voyager Conspiracy

The Gift:
* Serves as a direct follow-up to the events of the Scorpion 2-parter with regards to Seven of Nine and her character arc

Nemesis:
Standalone episode

Day of Honor:
* Follows up on the Tom/B'Elanna romance first introduced in The Swarm and continued in Blood Fever

Revulsion:
* References the events of Day of Honor and the Scorpion 2-parter through 'dating' dialogue
* Features Tuvok being promoted to Lt. Commander

The Raven:
* Directly follows up on characters and story elements first introduced in Scorpion, Part 2

Scientific Method:
* Features Chakotay reviewing the same Excelsior logs first seen in Flashback
* Features the holographic recreation of Leonardo Da Vinci's workshop first introduced in Scorpion P1

Year of Hell, Parts 1 and 2:
* Are a direct follow-up to events depicted in the episode Before and After, even though some of said events play out differently in the former episode than they do here

Random Thoughts:
Standalone episode

Concerning Flight:
* Features the holographic Leonardo Da Vinci first introduced in Scorpion, Part 1
* Contains a reference to the original Star Trek episode "Requiem for Methuselah)

Mortal Coil:
* Introduces plot elements that are later partially revisited in the episode Night
* References the events of Phage through dialogue

Message in a Bottle:
* Introduces the Hirogen, who later reappear in Hunters, Prey, the The Killing Game 2-parter, and Flesh and Blood
* Sets up plot ideas that are followed up on in Pathfinder, Life Line, Inside Man, Author, Author, and Endgame
* References Lifesigns through dialogue (could also be construed as referencing Heroes and Demons as well)
* References TNG's Unification, Part 2 through dialogue
* Sets up a story idea (Harry trying to successfully program a replacement EMH) that is later followed up on - and reversed - in Nothing Human

Waking Moments:
Standalone episode

Hunters:
* Features the return of the Hirogen, who were first introduced in Message in a Bottle, and will later feature in Prey, the The Killing Game 2-parter, and Flesh and Blood
* Introduces a story element that will later be followed up on in Hope and Fear
* Sets up a story element (the destruction of the Maquis) that will later be revisited in Extreme Risk
* Follows up on story elements introduced in Message in a Bottle and which will be in turn expanded upon by Pathfinder, Inside Man, Life Line, Author, Author, and Endgame

Prey:
* References the events of Scorpion through 'dating' dialogue

Retrospect:
Standalone episode

The Killing Game, Parts 1 and 2:
* References the events of Resolutions through on-screen graphics

Vis a Vis:
Standalone episode

The Omega Directive:
* Features the return of the holographic version of Leonardo Da Vinci's workshop first introduced in Scorpion, Part 1
* Features a story element first set up in Alter Ego (Harry playing kal-toh)

Unforgettable:
Standalone episode

Living Witness:
Standalone episode

Demon:
* Introduces Voyager's 'Gray Mode', which will be seen again in Counterpoint
* Introduces story elements and characters that will be followed up on in Course: Oblivion

One:
Standalone episode

Hope and Fear:
* Follows up on a story element introduced in Hunters

Season 5
Night:
* Partially follows up on a story element introduced in Mortal Coil
* Introduces the The Adventures of Captain Proton holoprogram, which reappears in Thirty Days, Bride of Chaotica!, and Shattered
* Introduces the Malon, who later reappear in Extreme Risk, Think Tank, and Juggernaut

Drone:
Standalone episode

Extreme Risk:
* Follows up on a story element (the destruction of the Maquis) that is introduced in Hunters
* Features the Malon, who first appeared in Night
* Introduces the Delta Flyer

In the Flesh:
* Features the character of Boothby (albeit as a Species 8472 'imposter'), tying it directly to numerous episodes of TNG which also feature the character
* Features the return of Species 8472, last seen in the episodes Prey and Scorpion, Part 2

Once Upon a Time:
Standalone episode

Nothing Human:
* Introduces the character of Tabor, who later reappears in Repression
* Follows up on and reverses a story idea introduced in Message in a Bottle (Harry trying to successfully program a replacement EMH)

Timeless:
* Contains a reference to Caretaker through 'dating' dialogue
* Is indirectly referenced in Relativity as being one of 3 temporal incidents with which the Voyager and/or her crew were involved

Thirty Days:
* Features Paris being demoted to Ensign and confined to the brig
* Features the return of the Captain Proton holoprogram first introduced in Night

Infinite Regress:
* Is referenced in Unimatrix Zero, Part 1

Counterpoint:
* Features the return of Voyager's 'Gray Mode'
* Introduces the Devore, who are referenced again in Think Tank and Dragon's Teeth

Gravity:
Standalone episode

Latent Image:
* References Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn through the re-usage of dialogue ("We come here today to pay final respects to our honored dead.")

Bride of Chaotica!:
* References Parallax through re-usage of dialogue (Tom Paris joking about the crew getting out and pushing the ship off of a subspace sandbar)
* Features the return of the Captain Proton holoprogram
* Introduces the character of Doctor Chaotica, who returns in the episode Shattered

The Fight:
* Features the return of the character of Boothby (albeit in hallucationary form), tying it to In the Flesh and the TNG episodes in which the character appears
* Contains a visual reference to the episode Tattoo in the form of Chakotay's grandfather bearing the mark that Kolopak, Chakotay's father, received in Tattoo and that Chakotay himself now bears
* Marks the first appearance of Chakotay's boxing program, which later returns in Tsunkatse under a slightly different name

Bliss:
Standalone episode

The Disease:
Standalone episode

Dark Frontier:
* Follows up on story and plot ideas from Scorpion, Part 2 and The Raven

Course: Oblivion:
* Is a direct sequel to the episode Demon

Think Tank:
* Contains references to the Malon, introduced in Night, and Devore, introduced in Counterpoint
* Contains a reference to the episode Timeless in the form of the Think Tank demanding the quantum slipstream drive introduced in that episode
* References the Vidiians and the Phage, both of which were first introduced in Phage

Juggernaught:
* Features the return of the Malon

Someone to Watch Over Me:
Standalone episode

11:59:
Standalone episode

Relativity:
* Is a direct sequel to the Future's End 2-parter
* Contains a reference to Timeless in the form of dialogue
* Also contains a dialogue reference to at least one of the show's other time-travel episodes (Time and Again, the Year of Hell 2-parter, this episode, Fury, Shattered, or Endgame)

Equinox, Parts 1 and 2:
* Follows on from a story element introduced through dialogue in State of Flux
* Features the culmination of a plot idea first introduced in Scorpion, Part 1 (tension between Janeway and Chakotay)

Survival Instinct:
* Features a visual reference to Distant Origin in the form of some Voth
* Features a dialogue reference to TNG's Redemption, Part 2

Barge of the Dead:
* Contains dialogue references to the DS9 episodes The Way of the Warrior, Homefront, and You are Cordially Invited

Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy:
* Introduces the Heirarchy, who return in The Void and Renaissance Man
* Introduces a story idea (the Emergency Command Hologram) which will be followed up on in the Workforce 2-parter and Renaissance Man and referenced in Author, Author

Dragon's Teeth:
* Contains a reference to the Devore from Counterpoint

Alice:
Standalone episode

Riddles:
Standalone episode

One Small Step:
Standalone episode

The Voyager Conspiracy:
* Follows up on story elements from Scorpion, Part 2, The Raven, and Dark Frontier
* References the episodes Caretaker, Basics, Part 2 and Message in a Bottle

Pathfinder:
* Follows up on story ideas introduced in Message in a Bottle and followed up on in Hunters (communication between the Alpha Quadrant and Voyager)
* Features the returns of Reginald Barclay (first seen, albeit in holographic form, in Projections) and Admiral Paris (first seen, albeit in hallucinatory form, in Persistence of Vision)
* Introduces the character of Commander Harkins, who will appear again in Inside Man

Fair Haven:
* Introduces story elements and characters who will return in the episode Spirit Folk

Tsunkatse:
* Features the return of Chakotay's boxing program (albeit under a different name), which was introduced in The Fight
* Mentions B'Elanna's stuffed animal Toby the Targ, which is again mentioned in Author, Author

Blink of an Eye:
Standalone episode

Virtuoso:
Standalone episode

Collective:
* Introduces Mezoti, Icheb, Azan, and Rebi

Memorial:
Standalone episode

Spirit Folk:
* Is a direct follow-up to the episode Fair Haven, featuring the return of story elements and characters introduced in that episode

Ashes to Ashes:
Standalone episode

Child's Play:
Standalone episode

Good Shepherd:
* Introduces the character of Tal Celes, who will reappear in The Haunting of Deck Twelve

Fury:
* Features the return of Kes
* Contains dialogue that references Ensign Wildman's pregnancy (first introduced in Elogium) and clears up any confusion concerning her gestation period

Live Fast and Prosper:
Standalone episode

Life Line:
* Features the return of Doctor Lewis Zimmerman, who is first referenced in Projections and first seen in The Swarm (albeit in holographic form)
* Features the returns of Reginald Barclay (previously seen in Projections - albeit in holographic form - and Pathfinder) and Deanna Troi (previously seen in Pathfinder)
* Features an appearance from Admiral Hayes, who was first introduced in Star Trek: First Contact
* Contains a dialogue reference to the DS9 episode Doctor Bashir, I Presume, in which Lewis Zimmerman made his debut appearance

Muse:
Standalone episode

The Haunting of Deck Twelve:
* Features the return of Tal Celes, who was first introduced in Good Shepherd

Unimatrix Zero, Part 1:
* Contains references to TNG's The Best of Both Worlds 2-parter and the Voyager episodes Unity, Infinite Regress, and Survival Instinct
* Introduces
* Features the destruction of the original Delta Flyer
* Features Tom Paris being promoted back to Lieutenant (J.G.)

Season 7
Unimatrix Zero, Part 2:
* Introduces story elements that will be followed up on in Endgame

Drive (produced and aired after Imperfection, yet set before it):
* Features the debut of the Delta Flyer II
* Features Tom and B'Elanna getting married

Imperfection (produced and aired before Drive, yet set after it)
* Features the departures of Mezoti, Rebi, and Azan

Critical Care:
Standalone episode

Repression (produced and aired after Imperfection, yet set before it)
* Features the return of the Maquis crewmembers Chell (first seen in Learning Curve) and Tabor (first seen in Nothing Human)
* Features the resolution of the bet made between Neelix and Tuvok in Rise

inside Man:
* Features the returns of Reginald Barclay, Deanna Troi, Admiral Paris, and Commander Harkins
* References the Voyager episodes Eye of the Needle (the Romulans having been interested in Voyager for years), Mortal Coil, Hope and Fear, and Bliss, and the TNG episode Suspicions

Body and Soul (produced after Flesh and Blood but aired before it):
* Is referenced in Flesh and Blood

Flesh and Blood:
* Features the return of the Hirogen
* References Body and Soul (which was produced after it but aired before it)

Nightingale:
* Introduces the Kraylor, who will reappear in Workforce, Part 1

Shattered:
* Features an appearance by Seska
* Revisits time periods/events seen in the episodes Caretaker, Macrocosm, Basics, Part 2, Scorpion, Part 2, Bride of Chaotica!, and Bliss
* Contains a dialogue reference to the episode Remember

Lineage:
* Follows up on story ideas referenced in Parallax and Faces
* Introduces a story element (B'Elanna's pregnancy) that will be followed up on in Prophecy and Endgame

Repentance:
* Introduces the Benkarans, who will reappear in Workforce, Part 1

Prophecy:
* Follows up on a story element (B'Elanna's pregnancy) first introduced in Lineage

The Void:
* Features the return of the Hierarchy, who were first introduced in Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy

Workforce, Parts 1 and 2:
* Follows up on a story element (the Emergency Command Hologram) first introduced in Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy
* Features the reappearances of the Kraylor (Nightingale), Brunali (Collective), and Benkarans (Repentance)
* Features the character of Ensign Golwat, who was first introduced in Caretaker and also appears in the episodes Flashback and Hunters

Human Error:
* Introduces a story element (Seven pursuing a romance with Chakotay) that will be followed up on in Endgame

Q2:
* Is the third and final installment of the Q Civil War story arc, and thus contains references to the previous two installments, Death Wish and The Q and the Gray
* Contains a veiled dialogue reference to the TNG episode Q Who? (Q telling Junior not to provoke the Borg)
* Revisits a story element first seen in the TNG episode Deja Q (Junior being willing to sacrifice himself to a friend from the consequences of his actions, just as his father was willing to sacrifice himself to save the Enterprise-D from the consequences of his actions in that episode)

Author, Author:
* Mentions B'Elanna's stuffed animal Toby the Targ, which was first mentioned in Tsunkatse
* Features the return of Admiral Paris, John Torres (first seen in Lineage after being referred to in Parallax and Faces), and Reginald Barclay

Friendship One:
* Features the return of Joseph Carey

Natural Law:
Standalone episode

Homestead:
* References a line in Fair Trade (Janeway joking about making Neelix the Federation ambassador to the Delta Quadrant)

Renaissance Man:
* Follows up on a story element (the Emergency Command Hologram) first introduced in Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy and also featured in Workforce, Parts 1 and 2

Endgame:
* Follows up on story ideas from Dark Frontier and the Unimatrix Zero 2-parter
* Features direct visual reference to the TNG episode All Good Things and the DS9 episode The Visitor in the form of the future Starfleet uniforms worn by the characters in the year 2402
* Features the return of Admiral Paris, Korath (introduced in the episode Prophecy), and Reginald Barclay

Also, what I've tried to demonstrate is that, despite what people involved with the show may have said, and despite common perception, Voyager is not as devoid of continuity as people think it is. I never once said that it was a heavily serialized show where you couldn't miss an episode, and have, in fact, consistently maintained that it is essentially a 'serialized procedural' in that it is quite episodic, yet also features a great deal of continuity and serialization (as I think the above will unequivocally demonstrate).
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Old October 11 2013, 08:38 AM   #254
Guy Gardener
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

There are shades and degrees of continuity. In the beginning of this thread when people were talking to you saying that Voyager had no continuity, that was figure of speech meaning that the continuity it had was poor, not that it was non existent.

I've calmed down in my old age, but I remember weeks ago being as manic as you seem.

But you do understand I just said that you believe that Voyager is a 200 pert story and you just proved that? And I believe in most of the continuity that you found, but I don't think it's good enough or enough to be compared to Buffy or Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactia where 90 percent of the episodes seemed seemless like between Scorpion and the gift, or between Day of Honor and Revulsion.

The only way that Voyager makes sense is if there is a month or two inbetween each story, which there is. A season lasts for a year but we only see 17 hours every season.

Are you writing a book?
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Old October 11 2013, 08:48 AM   #255
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

The fact that they had the same set used in multiple episodes is hardly a mark of continuity, that's like saying it has continuity because the bridge is used in every episode. Sets can be expensive to build so by featuring it in multiple episodes they can spread the cost.

And I don't think many are arguing that VOY didn't have any continuity just that it given it's premise it should have had more.
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