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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old October 10 2013, 06:32 AM   #226
Harvey
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

cylkoth wrote: View Post
I don't remember the magazine where I read that, but, the lack of an extended community onboard wasn't a failing per se, but a deliberate choice they made.
The lack of an extended community was a failing in one sense; it undermined the notion that the crew of Voyager was becoming a "family," which dialogue repeatedly suggested was the case.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:35 AM   #227
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

There were a few other recurring unnamed extras who wandered about the set for seasons at a time.
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Old October 10 2013, 07:21 AM   #228
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Even a stranded ship with only a 150 people on it can have a command clique.
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Old October 10 2013, 01:08 PM   #229
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

cylkoth wrote: View Post
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The show's failure to more extensively flesh out and establish a broader stable of recurring characters isn't a continuity issue; it's an issue of missed opportunity.
I am recalling an interview in which tptb stated (early in the show's run) that they were being very deliberate when writing stories that involved introducing crew members, because once into'ed, they'd be stuck with having to deal with them, having to explain their absence or ignored altogether.

I don't remember the magazine where I read that, but, the lack of an extended community onboard wasn't a failing per se, but a deliberate choice they made. And an unfortunate one IMO, as the main cast gelled so thoroughly, so quickly, that we, the audience, needed to have them interact with others more than ever, to avoid getting bored by them.

Voyager was made smaller than a Galaxy class ship, in order to force the crew to be in each other's faces, but the reality is that it wound up not really mattering what size the ship was. Everyone had their own private, spacious quarters , even newcomers Neelix and Kes. They weren't tripping over each other, or in each others' faces...I wish there had been a larger number of people onboard, so that the smallness of the ship could have been conveyed more overtly.

Oh well. Hindsight is always 20-20.
This bolsters what I said about this issue being one of missed opportunity.

I've reached a point in the second season of the show where the things I've been talking about re: continuity and serialization really become emphasized.

Beginning with Cold Fire and ending with Basics P2, you have 10 episodes in production order that have a great deal of continuity to them.

* Cold Fire is a direct sequel to Caretaker, and also directly follows up on a line from Persistence of Vision
* Maneuvers is a direct sequel to State of Flux
* Alliances is a direct continuation of the Seska/Kazon-Nistrim arc begun in State of Flux and revisited in Maneuvers
* Lifesigns brings back both the Vidiians and Seska and the Kazon-Nistrim, making it a direct continuation/expansion of story ideas from Phage, Faces, State of Flux, Maneuvers, and Alliances
* Investigations is a direct sequel to Lifesigns despite being produced first
* Deadlock features the Vidiians and the terminus of Ensign Wildman's pregnancy, making it a direct continuation/expansion of story ideas from Phage, Faces, Elogium, Tattoo, and Lifesigns
* The Basics 2-parter is a direct continuation of the Seska/Kazon-Nistrim story arc from State of Flux, Maneuvers, Alliances, Lifesigns, and Investigations
* False Profits is a direct sequel to the TNG Season 3 episode The Price
* Flashback directly references and/or ties in with Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, and is the third Voyager episode to make reference to the original Star Trek and its characters (following Tattoo and Alliances)

That's a significant amount of continuity, especially for a series that is perceived to have been largely devoid of any continuity at all.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:30 PM   #230
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

It's also, unsurprisingly, my favorite stretch of the series.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:42 PM   #231
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I was disappointed in how the spy arc ended with Neelix of all people just bumbling upon it, but that was a pretty good stretch. The only shame is, the main villain during this stretch had little staying power.
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Old October 10 2013, 08:20 PM   #232
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

There wasn't another stretch of episodes that precisely matches the above, although the pattern represented by said stretch of episodes does resurface in the later seasons of the show. Some examples of this are as follows:

* Before and After is directly tied to the Year of Hell 2-parter despite things that were foreshadowed in the former playing out slightly differently in the latter
* The Scorpion 2-parter, The Raven, Dark Frontier, the Unimatrix Zero 2-parter, and Endgame are all more or less direct sequels to/of each other; additionally, every episode of Voyager which features the Borg in any capacity - beginning with Blood Fever and ending with Endgame - can be either directly, indirectly, or tangiently tied together
* Message in a Bottle, Hunters, Prey, the The Killing Game 2-parter, and Flesh and Blood are all direct sequels to/of each other
* Message in a Bottle, Pathfinder, Life Line, Inside Man, Author, Author, and Endgame are all directly tied to each other, and are also tangiently tied to Eye of the Needle, Projections, and Persistence of Vision
* In the Flesh features Species 8472, tying it to the Scorpion 2-parter and Prey, and the character of Boothby, which ties it in with the episode The Fight and numerous episodes of TNG
* Course: Oblivion is a direct sequel to Demon
* Relativity is a direct sequel to the Future's End 2-parter, and can be tangentially tied to Timeless, Time and Again, and the Year of Hell 2-parter (all of which take place prior to its 'present-day' events), as well as to Fury, Shattered, and Endgame (which take place after its 'present-day' events)
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Old October 10 2013, 08:30 PM   #233
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Dude.

That's weak.

Have you tried watching Stargate?

That's the amount of continuity I expect from half a season of Stargate, not 7 long hard gruelling years.
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Old October 10 2013, 08:49 PM   #234
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
That's weak.
No, it's not, because I could've kept on listing even more examples.
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Old October 10 2013, 09:28 PM   #235
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

You think you could, but you probably can't.

Half the stuff you mentioned is because they brought back an old actor, but you said that it is not bad continuity to not bring actors back, then how can it be good continuity to bring actors back?

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
* The Scorpion 2-parter, The Raven, Dark Frontier, the Unimatrix Zero 2-parter, and Endgame are all more or less direct sequels to/of each other; additionally, every episode of Voyager which features the Borg in any capacity - beginning with Blood Fever and ending with Endgame - can be either directly, indirectly, or tangiently tied together
The Borg stories are connected? Wow! Who would think that the two part sweeps week special events focussing on the Borg always written by a producer would have any sense of continuity?

Also... This is TNG continuity that Voager stole.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
* Message in a Bottle, Hunters, Prey, the The Killing Game 2-parter, and Flesh and Blood are all direct sequels to/of each other
They spend thousands of dollars on making dozens of Hirogen costumes? It would be ridiculous to use them only once. The effort at continuity here is Holographic rights, not the return of a species, or are all Human episodes intrinsically connected?

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
* Message in a Bottle, Pathfinder, Life Line, Inside Man, Author, Author, and Endgame are all directly tied to each other, and are also tangiently tied to Eye of the Needle, Projections, and Persistence of Vision
Dwight Shultz. Although it's possible that Projections happened in an alternate timeline since it's forgotten by the time of Pathfinder... Because the Producers thought we were too stupid to remember back that far. They had contempt for us. I'm not a fan of contempt.

The Barclay story line is also stolen from TNG, and has nothing to do with projections because that was the doctor dreaming about a fake Barclay and not real Barclay visiting, if it did actually happen at all... And Lumpingin a couple other episodes because they have a similar "back to earth" story is grasping for relevance because almost every episode is a back to Earth episode since they are always trying to get back to Earth even if those two you singled out were incredibly Lucy with a football.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
* In the Flesh features Species 8472, tying it to the Scorpion 2-parter and Prey, and the character of Boothby, which ties it in with the episode The Fight and numerous episodes of TNG
Again bringing back a species doesn't necessarily mean that it's a contiguous story line unless they're committed to the same course of action or agenda. 8472 Boothby and real Boothby are not the same person, and leaping off stuff that TNG invented only proves that Voyager have no faith in itself... 8472 invades, random soldier trapped behind the lines, second secret invasion still annoyed by the asskicking Voyager forwarded them. So while In the Flesh and Scorpion have definite links, Prey is just a random episode using 8472.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
* Course: Oblivion is a direct sequel to Demon
Yes! Yes! Yes! But unfortunately two episodes do not make an arc.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
* Relativity is a direct sequel to the Future's End 2-parter, and can be tangentially tied to Timeless, Time and Again, and the Year of Hell 2-parter (all of which take place prior to its 'present-day' events), as well as to Fury, Shattered, and Endgame (which take place after its 'present-day' events)
Relativity and Future's end are the only episodes with Timecops, and Braxton isn't really a Timecop in Futures end. Either of them. Timeless is mentioned in relativity, but the rest are disconnected from the Timecops storyline and how can you muck in all the time travel episodes just because they're time travel episodes? You might as well lump in together all the episodes where they get somewhere with warpdrive because they're all using warpdrive.
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Old October 10 2013, 09:30 PM   #236
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
That's weak.
No, it's not, because I could've kept on listing even more examples.
I agree with guy gardener because no matter how many examples you find voyager does have real issues with continuity. For example the show even failed to conclude janeways mystery holonovel which is just bad storytelling to start and not finish something.
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Old October 10 2013, 09:37 PM   #237
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Yeah... more than a little disappointing that Janeway's Victorian babysitter holoprogram that has absolutely nothing to do with anything else and certainly wasn't interesting was the first real bit of continuity Voyager established.
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Old October 10 2013, 11:15 PM   #238
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

garaks the best wrote: View Post
DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
That's weak.
No, it's not, because I could've kept on listing even more examples.
I agree with guy gardener because no matter how many examples you find voyager does have real issues with continuity. For example the show even failed to conclude janeways mystery holonovel which is just bad storytelling to start and not finish something.
But.. no one cared.
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Old October 10 2013, 11:47 PM   #239
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

It's really hard to tell, but 20 years earlier Caroline Seymore was hot.

She also played the Romulan Commander on the one where Deanna gets a facelift.

Face of the Enemy?

Which would have been great casting for a follow through on Eye of the Needle.

Imagine a backhistory story where the Tal Shiar, having gotten hold of the crew's letters home, followed the rise and fall of that crew with insidious interest as time rollowe forward t the point where they fell foul to Caretaker.
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Old October 10 2013, 11:48 PM   #240
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

teacock wrote: View Post
garaks the best wrote: View Post
DigificWriter wrote: View Post

No, it's not, because I could've kept on listing even more examples.
I agree with guy gardener because no matter how many examples you find voyager does have real issues with continuity. For example the show even failed to conclude janeways mystery holonovel which is just bad storytelling to start and not finish something.
But.. no one cared.
I was just glad they stopped padding out episodes with that stuff.
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