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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 13 2013, 11:03 PM   #121
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This is why Spock SPECIFICALLY asks OldSpock "Did you ever encounter a man named Khan?" And OldSpock doesn't waste his time with historical background, he tells him exactly what he (and therefore, the audience) needs to know.
It's a good job the villain of the movie was Khan and not Nebuloid or something otherwise nu-Spock would have looked like a right idiot contacting nu-Spock only to find he'd never heard of him...
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Old October 13 2013, 11:31 PM   #122
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This is why Spock SPECIFICALLY asks OldSpock "Did you ever encounter a man named Khan?" And OldSpock doesn't waste his time with historical background, he tells him exactly what he (and therefore, the audience) needs to know.
It's a good job the villain of the movie was Khan and not Nebuloid or something otherwise nu-Spock would have looked like a right idiot contacting nu-Spock only to find he'd never heard of him...
No he wouldn't of looked like an idiot. It was a logical thing to do. The situation was critical. He needed to find out anything useful about Khan's character (information that wouldn't just come from biographical information in the library computer).
Honestly, what would the loss be if Spock Prime had never heard of Khan compared to the gain acquired since he did? As I said in a post in another thread, Spock apparently learned enough from Spock Prime to finally confidently formulate a plan against Khan.
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Old October 13 2013, 11:40 PM   #123
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

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I'm not sure how he would have handled things differently if he knew who Khan was in the grand scheme of things.
If he'd known earlier, he probably wouldn't have given Marcus the finger and tried to run to Earth. He WAS all set to summarily execute him until Spock appealed to his better nature and the obvious fact that shooting at the Klingon homeworld is probably a bad idea no matter how good your reasons. Knowing who Khan really is -- with all the gory details that entails -- would have put him back in a more or less killing mood.

Overall, nothing has changed with the "revelation" unless you're factoring in the whole "destiny" angle.
It changes quite a bit for the audience, since we are suddenly told that Khan has no redeemable characteristics after all and that having trusted him in the first place ABSOLUTELY will not end well (even Space Seed implied as much; the original fans had to wait fifteen years to learn otherwise).

It also changes quite a bit for Spock, who has already suspected that Khan will betray them the first chance he gets. OldSpock tells him it's not only a possibility, but a CERTAINTY, and also tells him that Khan's singlemindness is his one and only character flaw: Khan says he has done all that he has done specifically to rescue his frozen crew, so logically his betrayal should follow a similar pattern.

I'm sorry, but I'm still not understanding how any of this makes this conversation between the two work. If they wanted to really hype up the fact that Kirk was going to go up against one of the most famous foes of the franchise...
That's just it: most of the people seeing this movie DON'T KNOW he's one of the most famous foes of the franchise. They have no idea who "Khan" is other than "a character from Star Trek that Kirk is famous for screaming at."

They do not, in fact, know anything about Khan other than what they've seen in this movie. Khan turning out to be the original Big Bad is therefore a subversion of a TV trope that a lot of the audience has been conditioned to expect in movies like this: after shedding a tear in the brig and giving Kirk and the Enterprise all kinds of useful information and advice, the yougnlings are expecting Khan to do a face turn (like Harry Osborne and Sandman did in Spiderman-III or Hawkeye in The Avengers).

If only that happened, then it wouldn't have been so off-putting.
If only you'd read ANY of the IDW comics or played the X-box game, you wouldn't have even noticed.
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Old October 13 2013, 11:59 PM   #124
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

It was a hell of a leap to assume that old-Spock would have run into a guy from the past in stasis on a spaceship floating around godknowswhere for 100s of years.

So are we to assume that nu-Spock will contact old-Spock every time they run into trouble?

"So this probe has turned up..."

"Get some whales. NEXT."
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Old October 14 2013, 12:08 AM   #125
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
It was a hell of a leap to assume that old-Spock would have run into a guy from the past in stasis on a spaceship floating around godknowswhere for 100s of years.

So are we to assume that nu-Spock will contact old-Spock every time they run into trouble?

"So this probe has turned up..."

"Get some whales. NEXT."
Given the parallels in the universes, why not take the chance Spock Prime or someone Spock Prime knew of ran into Khan in the other universe?

As far as contacting Spock Prime for every little thing goes, that's been debated before. If anything, this movie helps resolve that issue a bit. We know Spock Prime has taken an oath not to interfere with the development of the new timeline. Still, he believed it was important enough to give at least enough information to Spock this time to send him down a path that might (MIGHT) defeat Khan.

Spock also knows he's probably violating regulations to contact Spock Prime. However he thinks it's worth it, which is part of his character development (sometimes, you do have to do what feels right). Just as Spock Prime said he's taken an oath not to interfere, then in the very next sentence says, "That said...." Someone who's 100 percent by the book would not do that.
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Old October 14 2013, 12:16 AM   #126
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Franklin wrote: View Post
As far as contacting Spock Prime for every little thing goes, that's been debated before. If anything, this movie helps resolve that issue a bit. We know Spock Prime has taken an oath not to interfere with the development of the new timeline. Still, he believed it was important enough to give at least enough information to Spock this time to send him down a path that might (MIGHT) defeat Khan.
It doesn't 'resolve' anything. Sure old-Spock has taken some arbitrary oath but that doesn't mean nu-Spock won't chance his arm on the off-chance that old-Spock deems it important enough to divulge info.

Although given the 'info' he gave regarding Khan I could forgive nu-Spock for thinking not to bother...
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Old October 14 2013, 12:16 AM   #127
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how he would have handled things differently if he knew who Khan was in the grand scheme of things.
If he'd known earlier, he probably wouldn't have given Marcus the finger and tried to run to Earth. He WAS all set to summarily execute him until Spock appealed to his better nature and the obvious fact that shooting at the Klingon homeworld is probably a bad idea no matter how good your reasons. Knowing who Khan really is -- with all the gory details that entails -- would have put him back in a more or less killing mood.
I was talking about the specific moment after Spock finds out about Khan from Old Spock, not earlier. Would Kirk do anything differently had he found out right there? Maybe not. He would have remained cautious, his suspicions now being confirmed.

Overall, nothing has changed with the "revelation" unless you're factoring in the whole "destiny" angle.
It changes quite a bit for the audience, since we are suddenly told that Khan has no redeemable characteristics after all and that having trusted him in the first place ABSOLUTELY will not end well (even Space Seed implied as much; the original fans had to wait fifteen years to learn otherwise).
I wouldn't have trusted him at all even BEFORE the revelation, and I would think he has no redeemable characteristics just from the terrorist acts alone. Kirk was taking a big risk, but he felt it was a necessary one just to get to Marcus. He probably figured that once in the bridge it would be two birds with one stone. His only fault is underestimating that one bird's recovery.

It also changes quite a bit for Spock, who has already suspected that Khan will betray them the first chance he gets. OldSpock tells him it's not only a possibility, but a CERTAINTY, and also tells him that Khan's singlemindness is his one and only character flaw: Khan says he has done all that he has done specifically to rescue his frozen crew, so logically his betrayal should follow a similar pattern.
I fail to see how Old Spock saying it changes anything. The way Khan has been portrayed before that phone call, I don't think anyone would find him trustworthy. It's Kirk's error not to tell Scotty to keep two eyes on Khan when he was down.

I'm sorry, but I'm still not understanding how any of this makes this conversation between the two work. If they wanted to really hype up the fact that Kirk was going to go up against one of the most famous foes of the franchise...
That's just it: most of the people seeing this movie DON'T KNOW he's one of the most famous foes of the franchise. They have no idea who "Khan" is other than "a character from Star Trek that Kirk is famous for screaming at."

They do not, in fact, know anything about Khan other than what they've seen in this movie. Khan turning out to be the original Big Bad is therefore a subversion of a TV trope that a lot of the audience has been conditioned to expect in movies like this: after shedding a tear in the brig and giving Kirk and the Enterprise all kinds of useful information and advice, the yougnlings are expecting Khan to do a face turn (like Harry Osborne and Sandman did in Spiderman-III or Hawkeye in The Avengers).
Which would be fine and all, except that Khan is a terrorist and a mass murderer. That's why I felt no sympathy for him when he started tearing up. Even nuKirk saw right through him and reminded him of his crimes. And I said I said earlier, of course there would be many who do not know Khan, which is why you hype it up on promotions to generate awareness that Trek will be featuring its most famous villain. Hyping up Cumberbatch as Khan, audiences would then be interested in checking the film out to see what it is that makes the villain so great. It's a method that has worked for many other franchise films and they didn't need Leonard Nimoy to pop up and say "oh yes, he's the worst we ever faced".

In the end, I probably would have preferred they stick with John Harrison and try to create a new iconic villain rather than slapping it in mid-way through the writing process to the point that there's no much similarity between this portrayal of Khan and the last one, character wise.

If only that happened, then it wouldn't have been so off-putting.
If only you'd read ANY of the IDW comics or played the X-box game, you wouldn't have even noticed.
No one should have to read comics or play video games to fill in holes left by the films.
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Old October 14 2013, 12:19 AM   #128
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

I haven't read them and I didn't see the problem. Not so much a hole as a scene you didn't like.
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Old October 14 2013, 12:24 AM   #129
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

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I haven't read them and I didn't see the problem. Not so much a hole as a scene you didn't like.
It's minor, it doesn't ruin the whole thing for me, I was just responding to the idea that you need to read a book or a video game to understand the context in a film. It's that kind of thing you see in Star Wars forums where there are fans that explain plot holes in the prequels by pointing out various books, games ect.
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Old October 14 2013, 12:40 AM   #130
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
I haven't read them and I didn't see the problem. Not so much a hole as a scene you didn't like.
It's minor, it doesn't ruin the whole thing for me, I was just responding to the idea that you need to read a book or a video game to understand the context in a film. It's that kind of thing you see in Star Wars forums where there are fans that explain plot holes in the prequels by pointing out various books, games ect.
I've always ignored anything that isn't in the film.

Back in the dark ages I was reading the Blish adaptations and seeing TOS through the eyes of a young teen via syndication. I learned back then the books can really screw you up ( and so can syndication edits).
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Old October 14 2013, 02:11 AM   #131
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

It really, doesn't make that much sense Spock being so open about being from the future. So he's sworn a solemn vow never to discuss the future. It would help to keep that vow if he wasn't telling everyone he met that he's from the future. Kirk, Scotty, and Keenser know because they had to find out, and Spock decided to indulge his younger self and let him in on the secret. Fine. But to everyone else, he should only be Cousin Selek.
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Old October 14 2013, 03:09 AM   #132
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This is why Spock SPECIFICALLY asks OldSpock "Did you ever encounter a man named Khan?" And OldSpock doesn't waste his time with historical background, he tells him exactly what he (and therefore, the audience) needs to know.
It's a good job the villain of the movie was Khan and not Nebuloid or something otherwise nu-Spock would have looked like a right idiot contacting nu-Spock only to find he'd never heard of him...
If he was nebuloid, the conversation would have been

"Have you ever encountered a nebuloid life form that feeds on red blood cells?"
To which OldSpock would reply: "Yes I have... you DO know how to cross-circuit to B, right?"
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Old October 14 2013, 03:50 AM   #133
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how he would have handled things differently if he knew who Khan was in the grand scheme of things.
If he'd known earlier, he probably wouldn't have given Marcus the finger and tried to run to Earth. He WAS all set to summarily execute him until Spock appealed to his better nature and the obvious fact that shooting at the Klingon homeworld is probably a bad idea no matter how good your reasons. Knowing who Khan really is -- with all the gory details that entails -- would have put him back in a more or less killing mood.
I was talking about the specific moment after Spock finds out about Khan from Old Spock, not earlier. Would Kirk do anything differently had he found out right there?
Yes: his phaser wouldn't have been set for stun.

I wouldn't have trusted him at all even BEFORE the revelation
He DIDN'T trust him. But he did vastly under-estimate him.

I fail to see how Old Spock saying it changes anything. The way Khan has been portrayed before that phone call, I don't think anyone would find him trustworthy.
It's not his trustworthiness at issue here. The trope in question is the "enemy of my enemy" face turn that often occurs in superhero movies: bad guy becomes a sort-of-good guy to take down a greater evil. In Khan's case, he was going for the "We're not so different after all" redemption schtick and doing a reasonably good job of selling it. Kirk didn't buy it, but it wasn't entirely meant for Kirk anyway.

Note that Kirk Prime actually DID give Khan a second chance and the redemption narrative is the original ending of Space Seed. It wasn't until Wrath of Khan that we found out firsthand what a dangerous lunatic he really was.

Which would be fine and all, except that Khan is a terrorist and a mass murderer.
So was Doctor Octopus, but we're still meant to sympathize with him in the final moments of the film.

Seriously, I'm not making this up. That's been the general reaction of everyone I know who saw the movie who HADN'T seen Wrath of Khan ahead of time. For people who don't know Star Trek that well -- believe it or not, there are ALOT of them -- "Khan" is a known Star Trek villain even if the STORY of Khan isn't.

In the end, I probably would have preferred they stick with John Harrison and try to create a new iconic villain rather than slapping it in mid-way through the writing process to the point that there's no much similarity between this portrayal of Khan and the last one, character wise.
I lump this together with all the people on these boards who were angry that Chris Pine never did a Shatner impression.

To which I can only reply:


No one should have to read comics or play video games to fill in holes left by the films.
Why? The movie makes explicit references to the game AND the comics. The "holes" were were WRITTEN INTO THE MOVIE specifically to give those supplemental materials something to fill:

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
I haven't read them and I didn't see the problem. Not so much a hole as a scene you didn't like.
It's minor, it doesn't ruin the whole thing for me, I was just responding to the idea that you need to read a book or a video game to understand the context in a film.
You don't. You're meant to ASSUME something is the case because the story wouldn't unfold that way otherwise.

I mean, unless you think "the Mudd incident" Sulu mentions is something from the previous film (or a reference to the Nibiru scene), you're meant to assume it's something that happened on a previous mission, before the movie started. That mission is a reference to the IDW comic series, just like McCoy's "I once performed C-section on a Gorn" refers to the video game, which -- in turn -- makes mention of the Nibiru Mission in Kirk's final log entry.

Basically, it's like Iron Man 3 referring to something that happened in The Avengers.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:41 PM   #134
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
To which I can only reply:
You have no idea how pissed I was that Cumberbatch never did that.

Why? The movie makes explicit references to the game AND the comics. The "holes" were were WRITTEN INTO THE MOVIE specifically to give those supplemental materials something to fill:
Tie-in material is supposed to supplement a movie, give it another angle to enjoy it. Not be something you have to read in order to follow the movie.

Basically, it's like Iron Man 3 referring to something that happened in The Avengers.
Which I don't really approve of either, though it is a bit more acceptable given Iron Man 3 is referring to something that there is a guarantee that 95% of the audience is familiar with. Star Trek comics are confirmed to only be read by 2% of fandom. You don't throw references into your movie that only 2% of people seeing it (actually, less if you count non-fans) are going to get.
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Old October 14 2013, 04:57 PM   #135
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
If he'd known earlier, he probably wouldn't have given Marcus the finger and tried to run to Earth. He WAS all set to summarily execute him until Spock appealed to his better nature and the obvious fact that shooting at the Klingon homeworld is probably a bad idea no matter how good your reasons. Knowing who Khan really is -- with all the gory details that entails -- would have put him back in a more or less killing mood.
I was talking about the specific moment after Spock finds out about Khan from Old Spock, not earlier. Would Kirk do anything differently had he found out right there?
Yes: his phaser wouldn't have been set for stun.
It's not very Starfleet to kill someone in cold blood. They ended up freezing him in the end too, rather than killing him after extracting the blood "just to be sure".

It's not his trustworthiness at issue here. The trope in question is the "enemy of my enemy" face turn that often occurs in superhero movies: bad guy becomes a sort-of-good guy to take down a greater evil. In Khan's case, he was going for the "We're not so different after all" redemption schtick and doing a reasonably good job of selling it. Kirk didn't buy it, but it wasn't entirely meant for Kirk anyway.
It's a trope I really don't care for. If audiences suddenly feel "saw-wy" for Khan because he tears up a bit, that's their problem.

Note that Kirk Prime actually DID give Khan a second chance and the redemption narrative is the original ending of Space Seed. It wasn't until Wrath of Khan that we found out firsthand what a dangerous lunatic he really was.
A big mistake on Kirk's part, one that would come back to haunt him. I didn't like his decision to let them live on a planet, but I liked the repercussions and how it added much to his own personal crisis.


I lump this together with all the people on these boards who were angry that Chris Pine never did a Shatner impression.

To which I can only reply:

Way to lump me in with the rabid fans who can't tell the difference between writing and acting performances. I'm not asking for consistency in performances, I'm asking for consistency in character. I think Chris Pine is actually perfect for Kirk and has the right sensibilities and swagger for the role. However, the way he is written feels totally at odds with what I expect from Kirk but I don't blame it at all on Pine, because he's just working with what he's given. When Pine is given a moment that is reminiscent of the Kirk played by Shatner, he's VERY good at it and he never resorts to mimicking, he makes Kirk his own, much like how the Bond actors make the character their own while keeping the core intact. I point to the moment where Spock praises him for making the right decision not to kill Khan. I understand this is supposed to be a different Kirk, a Kirk without a father, but I really do not care for that interpretation because I want to see the heroic Kirk we're all familiar with but on new adventures. The ending implies that he "grew up" of sorts and gained a new respect for the chair, hopefully that will be reflective in the next film where they're on their five year mission. No more Frat Boy Kirk.

Then there's Khan. Given this is supposed to be the same exact guy with the same background, I expect him to be aligned with the Khan we saw previously, character-wise. Cumberbatch doesn't have to mimic the performance of his predecessor, but the writers should at least do a better job of making sure the writing is consistent. If they totally wanted to remake the character of Khan, it should have just remained John Harrison.

Why? The movie makes explicit references to the game AND the comics. The "holes" were were WRITTEN INTO THE MOVIE specifically to give those supplemental materials something to fill:
The Wormhole summed it best for me.

You don't. You're meant to ASSUME something is the case because the story wouldn't unfold that way otherwise.

I mean, unless you think "the Mudd incident" Sulu mentions is something from the previous film (or a reference to the Nibiru scene), you're meant to assume it's something that happened on a previous mission, before the movie started. That mission is a reference to the IDW comic series, just like McCoy's "I once performed C-section on a Gorn" refers to the video game, which -- in turn -- makes mention of the Nibiru Mission in Kirk's final log entry.

Basically, it's like Iron Man 3 referring to something that happened in The Avengers.
You see, I'm actually fine with the references you mentioned right there, because they're not vital. Just little easter eggs for fun, not something the film really depended on. It also gives the Enterprise a sense of history to those who never actually read those comics. I actually thought the Mudd incident was referring to Harry Mudd, as in they have already encountered him by this point. I still consider the thing with the crew being totally casual to the conversation minor, but I detest the idea that you have to read a comic book tie on or a video game tie in just to understand why there are holes the film left open. It's not everyone's duty to read a bunch of expanded universe books to get why the STAR WARS prequels are rife of plot holes and inconsistencies. The films should have never had them in the first place and no film should ever assume everyone is going to follow through the story because they went through all the tin-in material.

However, it is very different from references in IRON MAN 3, because at least those are expected to be picked up because it's safe to assume a major chunk of your audience has seen THE AVENGERS, which was a major film, not a comic book or video game. Far more likely than audiences knowing that the Trek comics are being brought up. If Kirk went through a very traumatic experience in a comic book and then the next film picked up on that with him having nightmares about it, I expect the film to explain why he's having those nightmares, not be asked to read the comic book. For me, the only canon that truly matters is the films. Comics, video games don't mean shit. That's how it is, not just for me, but for audiences in general.
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