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Old October 8 2013, 01:53 AM   #136
Geoff Peterson
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post

If elements from nuTrek movies make it into nuTrek novels, I don't see a problem. It's when they make it into the other novels - which are set in a completely different universe - that's a problem.
Nope. The parts that take place prior to Nero's appearance and Kirk's birth take place in the "Prime Universe" and of course the events Nero and Spock describe as happening in 2387 do as well. So things like George and Winona Kirk serving on the Kelvin under Capt. Robau, the destruction of Romulas and Spock being MIA are all elements that authors can use in books set in the PU.
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Old October 8 2013, 03:02 AM   #137
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Fair warnng: my next TOS book contains liberal amounts of VOYAGER-related material.


Look, you're the one who started this "warning label" nonsense. I merely said I could go along with that. I didn't mean that I literally expect to see such labels on the books. I think I'm capable of sorting them out from the blurb on the back cover or the description on the Amazon pages to see if it's something I want to read.

All this crap is really pushing me away from Star Trek - at least from this forum (probably to the delight and satisfaction of some here) - and making me regret my decision to become a paid member.

Elephant's Graveyard wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
And yeah, it's everyone else replying that's committed the greater incivility. My own negative remarks are directed toward the individuals associated with the movie itself. I'm not flaming or trolling anyone who likes it. Just because I think the 2009 movie was stupid, that doesn't mean I think the fans are also stupid. I'm fully aware that I like books and movies that other people don't.

BTW, there have been plenty of people coming in to the Voyager forum just to rant on about how much they dislike that series. Have I gone on a rampage of trolling them?

No, I have not.
While it can be annoying to have a lot of people reacting negatively to your opinions, it doesn't automatically become trolling. And up until today's posts everything in this thread has been civil.

You are entitled to have your opinions and post them, everyone else is equally entitled to have theirs and post theirs. We won't all agree. It's important for everyone to stay polite and enjoy the conversation.
Obviously your definition of "civil" and my definition are not in agreement.

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Timewalker wrote: View Post
You really shouldn't make unfounded assumptions. See the attached screenshot. It's my understanding that only paid members get to see and post in the premium members' lounge.
Well I guess I stand corrected and that explains the self entitlement that blares from every single one of your posts you write.
You're crossing the line into getting personal, Dimesdan, the self entitlement comment isn't warranted.


Now, let's get back to poking fun at Greg Cox for daring to put Voyager within a TOS novel (Something I'm really intrigued by...)
Crossovers that are acknowledged as crossovers are fine and can be fun. But given how many decades separate Kirk and Janeway, I'd expect to see a plausible explanation for having the two in the same story (yes, I'm reasonably sure Mr. Cox is going for humor in his previous post and if he really intended to write such a book, he wouldn't be talking about it in this thread).

One thing that struck me about Janeway was how she postured and pontificated about how Kirk had no discipline and that he and his contemporaries wouldn't have made it in the modern, more "enlightened" Starfleet... but when you get right down to it, she did her own fair share of "cowboy diplomacy" (to borrow a TNG term) - bluffing, threatening to blow the ship up (and actually doing it), killing, and using sex (or at least the implied promise of sex) to get the better of the enemy. They're really not that different in how they choose to handle some kinds of situations.
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Old October 8 2013, 03:16 AM   #138
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Crossovers that are acknowledged as crossovers are fine and can be fun. But given how many decades separate Kirk and Janeway, I'd expect to see a plausible explanation for having the two in the same story (yes, I'm reasonably sure Mr. Cox is going for humor in his previous post and if he really intended to write such a book, he wouldn't be talking about it in this thread).
It's not a joke.
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Old October 8 2013, 03:23 AM   #139
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post

Now, let's get back to poking fun at Greg Cox for daring to put Voyager within a TOS novel (Something I'm really intrigued by...)
Crossovers that are acknowledged as crossovers are fine and can be fun. But given how many decades separate Kirk and Janeway, I'd expect to see a plausible explanation for having the two in the same story (yes, I'm reasonably sure Mr. Cox is going for humor in his previous post and if he really intended to write such a book, he wouldn't be talking about it in this thread). .
Actually, it's more of a Kirk/Seven of Nine book and it's coming out at the end of the February. For real!

And, yeah, perhaps the whole "warning label" thing has gotten out of hand. The original idea was to poke a little fun at the idea that a stray reference to another flavor of Star Trek (or even Doctor Who or Here Comes the Brides) was enough to somehow contaminate or spoil an otherwise fun book. And that NuTrek in particular was somehow so radioactive that merely trace amounts could provoke an allergic response.

Keep in mind, though, that this is coming from someone who has been known to sneak all sorts of obscure in-jokes and references into my books, so obviously I'm not particularly worried about "mixing the streams" as it were.

Heck, I still giggle when I think of this Wonder Woman/Frankenstein crossover I novelized a few years back. I confess writing that fight scene amused me to no end!
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Old October 8 2013, 04:01 AM   #140
Geoff Peterson
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Crossovers that are acknowledged as crossovers are fine and can be fun. But given how many decades separate Kirk and Janeway, I'd expect to see a plausible explanation for having the two in the same story (yes, I'm reasonably sure Mr. Cox is going for humor in his previous post and if he really intended to write such a book, he wouldn't be talking about it in this thread).
Given Star Trek's history, there are numerous plausible reasons a character from the 24th Century could pop up in a 23rd Century set novel ( and vica versa.) Heck they don't even have to interact to appear in the same novel.

Why wouldn't Greg mention the book here? IIRC he's mentioned it in other threads too.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:04 AM   #141
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post

Now, let's get back to poking fun at Greg Cox for daring to put Voyager within a TOS novel (Something I'm really intrigued by...)
Crossovers that are acknowledged as crossovers are fine and can be fun. But given how many decades separate Kirk and Janeway, I'd expect to see a plausible explanation for having the two in the same story (yes, I'm reasonably sure Mr. Cox is going for humor in his previous post and if he really intended to write such a book, he wouldn't be talking about it in this thread). .
Actually, it's more of a Kirk/Seven of Nine book and it's coming out at the end of the February. For real!

And, yeah, perhaps the whole "warning label" thing has gotten out of hand. The original idea was to poke a little fun at the idea that a stray reference to another flavor of Star Trek (or even Doctor Who or Here Comes the Brides) was enough to somehow contaminate or spoil an otherwise fun book. And that NuTrek in particular was somehow so radioactive that merely trace amounts could provoke an allergic response.
Okay, I stand corrected. And since Seven of Nine is my favorite Voyager character, I'm happy to see her in a novel.

I actually do enjoy crossovers - I never noticed a lot of the ones in Ishmael, but I think my reasons for being annoyed at the Doctor Who references are reasonable. I just don't like Abrams' version of Star Trek and would prefer that it stay by itself.

A good crossover can be quite a challenge - I discovered that a couple of years ago when I did my NaNoWriMo entry. My crossover was the Sliders TV series and Margaret Atwood's novel The Handmaid's Tale.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:27 AM   #142
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I think we are closing on the events of Star Trek '09 rather faster than some of the authors expected. I really hope the editing staff have a plan.

At the very least the Romulan political response to the reunification movement in general, and Spock in particular needs to be lined up.
Not to mention the whole, "Enterprise-E/B-4/Captain Data"-situation established in the '09 Countdown comic series.

The time will be fast approaching in the chronology when this subject will need to be either addressed or ignored within the Pocket Books continuity -- the MMO and The Needs of the Many depict the "B-4" personality being submerged/deleted in favor of the "Data"-matrix in 2385, but The Persistence of Memory depicts a very different version of the Data-personality's re-emergence.

Neither continuities accounts for Data II's re-entry into Starfleet before the year 2384 ends (in fact, Data actually turns down a commission for personal reasons), although there's still ample time in which this could happen; a commission-reactivation likely wouldn't be a huge issue with someone of Picard's stature sponsoring it, for example.

The real question will be, how "sacrosanct" will the '09 Countdown series' version of events be leading up to the Hobus Supernova in 2387, and how obligated will the novel-authors feel to uphold (or dispense with) that series' lead-up to the nova?

As someone else pointed out, the groundwork is going to have to be laid in addressing how the Typhon Pact and Khitomer Alliance fit into that timeframe two or three chronology-years down the road (assuming they're even still in existence at that point), particularly after the nova occurs. There are already several major pre-Hobus timeline-divergences between the MMO and the novels, and this could widen further in the next couple of years.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:49 AM   #143
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

I don't think the books have ever been required to follow anything from another medium other that TV/Movies, I don't see why that would change. As far as I know the Bad Robot people have no power over the Prime Universe stuff, so I don't see them having any power to force them too follow them.
Timewalker wrote: View Post
.

I actually do enjoy crossovers - I never noticed a lot of the ones in Ishmael, but I think my reasons for being annoyed at the Doctor Who references are reasonable. I just don't like Abrams' version of Star Trek and would prefer that it stay by itself.

A good crossover can be quite a challenge - I discovered that a couple of years ago when I did my NaNoWriMo entry. My crossover was the Sliders TV series and Margaret Atwood's novel The Handmaid's Tale.
What about stuff that would exist in both universes that was introduced in the Abrams movies, like the new alien races or the Kelvin, would those be ok?
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Old October 8 2013, 06:52 AM   #144
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

JD wrote: View Post
I don't think the books have ever been required to follow anything from another medium other that TV/Movies, I don't see why that would change. As far as I know the Bad Robot people have no power over the Prime Universe stuff, so I don't see them having any power to force them too follow them.
Timewalker wrote: View Post
.

I actually do enjoy crossovers - I never noticed a lot of the ones in Ishmael, but I think my reasons for being annoyed at the Doctor Who references are reasonable. I just don't like Abrams' version of Star Trek and would prefer that it stay by itself.

A good crossover can be quite a challenge - I discovered that a couple of years ago when I did my NaNoWriMo entry. My crossover was the Sliders TV series and Margaret Atwood's novel The Handmaid's Tale.
What about stuff that would exist in both universes that was introduced in the Abrams movies, like the new alien races or the Kelvin, would those be ok?
Since I have yet to see STID, I have no idea what you're talking about. To me, "Kelvin" is a scale for measuring temperature. The only similar-sounding word I can think of are the Kelvans (the aliens from the Andromeda Galaxy, in "By Any Other Name").

It seems like you're asking if I would accept Abrams' retconned stuff, and the answer is no. I'm not talking about things like the name of Kirk's mother. That's a detail that's trivial enough to ignore, since I've seen several names used throughout the years. It's the more important things like events, character traits, character relationships, in-universe science/physics, etc. that matter.

As an example, if I read a TOS novel, I expect to see a Chekov who is like the Walter Koenig version, not the Wesley-"child genius" version of the 2009 movie. I expect to see Spock as Leonard Nimoy portrayed him - a dignified 30-40 year old (unless it's a movie-era or TNG-era story). I would not expect to see an uptight jackass like Quinto portrayed in the 2009 movie. I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.

The way I see the Abramsverse is the kind of AU-fanfic that some people write where they take canon relationships and events and say, "what if...". Some of these AU stories work quite well, and others don't. The Abramsverse, in my opinion, just doesn't work. It's too jarring.

Another problem is the actors. Simply giving the Kirk actor (can't remember his name) a costume and hairdo that makes him superficially resemble William Shatner just isn't enough to make me believe he is an AU version of Kirk. To me he has all the charisma of a cardboard runway model, which isn't much. Ditto for Quinto, the Uhura actress, and others. They simply have not been able to tap into what makes the characters tick, and this is a huge part of why I can't stand them and don't believe they are who the screen credits tell me they are. And since I "hear" the actors' voices in my mind as I read the characters' dialogue, there's a disconnect.
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Old October 8 2013, 07:28 AM   #145
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Leto_II wrote: View Post
the MMO and The Needs of the Many depict the "B-4" personality being submerged/deleted in favor of the "Data"-matrix in 2385
Already clarified in the short stories, set in the game's universe:



Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would not expect to see an uptight jackass like Quinto portrayed in the 2009 movie. I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.
Mmmmm. How did you ever handle the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of TOS, and its sequels in DS9 and prequel in ENT? And the novels "TNG: Dark Mirror" and "Dark Passions". And the alternate universes of TNG's "Parallels"?
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Old October 8 2013, 09:52 AM   #146
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Elephant's Graveyard wrote: View Post
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Well I guess I stand corrected and that explains the self entitlement that blares from every single one of your posts you write.
You're crossing the line into getting personal, Dimesdan, the self entitlement comment isn't warranted.
My apologies, I forgot where I was and the whole, post not poster thing.
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Old October 8 2013, 10:27 AM   #147
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote:
Since I have yet to see STID, I have no idea what you're talking about. To me, "Kelvin" is a scale for measuring temperature. The only similar-sounding word I can think of are the Kelvans (the aliens from the Andromeda Galaxy, in "By Any Other Name").
The USS Kelvin NCC-0514, the ship Jim Kirk's parents served on at the start of the '09 Star Trek movie.
It seems like you're asking if I would accept Abrams' retconned stuff, and the answer is no. I'm not talking about things like the name of Kirk's mother. That's a detail that's trivial enough to ignore, since I've seen several names used throughout the years.
The new movies use George and Winona as the names of Kirk's parents, taken from the classic novels Enterprise: The First Adventure, Final Frontier and Best Destiny. In-universe (or rather in-multiverse), those things should be common to both universes since they pre-date the timeline tampering.
It's the more important things like events, character traits, character relationships, in-universe science/physics, etc. that matter.

As an example, if I read a TOS novel, I expect to see a Chekov who is like the Walter Koenig version, not the Wesley-"child genius" version of the 2009 movie. I expect to see Spock as Leonard Nimoy portrayed him - a dignified 30-40 year old (unless it's a movie-era or TNG-era story). I would not expect to see an uptight jackass like Quinto portrayed in the 2009 movie. I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.
Those events specific to the new timeline wouldn't happen - although Spock and Uhura definitely had some attraction, which we saw in early TOS episodes which IMO could be referenced even if they never acted on it.

But the non-story-specific stuff that the new movies add which would exist in the Trek universe irrespective of angry Romulans and Old Spocks travelling into the past should be fair game for referencing - like an icy planet in the Vulcan system (which shares the name "Delta Vega" with a dusty planet at the edge of the galaxy) with a lonely Starfleet outpost on it and monsters roaming around or the new alien species seen throughout the movies - like most of the TMP aliens they've never been seen elsewhere in the franchise, but them and their worlds would exist in both timelines, and they may be Federation members in both. Maybe they were always just off-camera in TOS and the classic movies? It's an intriguing possibility, IMO.
The way I see the Abramsverse is the kind of AU-fanfic that some people write where they take canon relationships and events and say, "what if...". Some of these AU stories work quite well, and others don't. The Abramsverse, in my opinion, just doesn't work. It's too jarring
That's essentially what it is - the biggest "what if?" story ever. A madman appears in 2233, Kirk's father dies saving his crew, years later Spock's mother is killed, his planet is destroyed. That's the premise. Things get weirder when someone else finds and revives Khan...

Remember that the writers themselves probably don't love every incarnation of Trek either. I know of at least two who hated Into Darkness. And I know of a writer who hates time travel yet wrote two excellent Trek novels about it!
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Old October 8 2013, 08:21 PM   #148
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.
You need to watch "Charlie X" again. Specifically the mess-hall scene where Uhura sings. Orci and Kurtzman did a great deal of rectal yanking, but the Spock-Uhura relationship is not one of the things they pulled out of their asses.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:30 PM   #149
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

KRAD wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would not expect to see Spock and Uhura smooching and getting emotional all over each other, since TOS Spock and Uhura have a more dignified kind of friendship and professional relationship.
You need to watch "Charlie X" again. Specifically the mess-hall scene where Uhura sings. Orci and Kurtzman did a great deal of rectal yanking, but the Spock-Uhura relationship is not one of the things they pulled out of their asses.
Heck, the very first Trek episode that ever aired, "Mantrap," had Uhura shamelessly flirting with Spock. "Tell me about the moons on your world, Mr. Spock," etc.

Granted, the original show never really developed this, but the seeds were there in the beginning . . ..

More importantly, so what if Spock and Uhura weren't involved in the original series? New timeline, new rules, radical changes . . . that's kinda the whole point.

NuTrek is not supposed to be 100% faithful to TOS.
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Old October 9 2013, 05:24 AM   #150
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
But the non-story-specific stuff that the new movies add which would exist in the Trek universe irrespective of angry Romulans and Old Spocks travelling into the past should be fair game for referencing - like an icy planet in the Vulcan system (which shares the name "Delta Vega" with a dusty planet at the edge of the galaxy) with a lonely Starfleet outpost on it and monsters roaming around or the new alien species seen throughout the movies - like most of the TMP aliens they've never been seen elsewhere in the franchise, but them and their worlds would exist in both timelines, and they may be Federation members in both. Maybe they were always just off-camera in TOS and the classic movies? It's an intriguing possibility, IMO.
This is the kind of stuff that I was referring to.
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