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Old October 9 2013, 03:56 PM   #511
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Yanks wrote: View Post
But your mind is made up... Obama gave us the ACA, and the voters want more goodies.
I'm for the Affordable Care Act, expansions of Food Stamps, Unemployment and Education spending. The wife makes a decent living and we have health insurance (good health insurance).

What 'goodies' am I wanting exactly?
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Old October 9 2013, 04:27 PM   #512
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

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EXACTLY!!! Why support a system that only favors those that have figured it out better!! What the hell is "fair" about that?!?!?!
Wut? I honestly cannot tell what you are trying to say here.

Many have been ousted by the TEA Party. That's a good thing. One need only look at the vote on the ACA to see the progressives. The Democrats wont say they are, but they follow their leadership like lemmings and the far left definately is.
Wut?? Please name three progressive Democrats who were ousted by the Tea Party. Let's see if you can prove this claim.

The ACA is "progressive" only by a very modest definition of the world. Truly "progressive" would be, oh, I don't know, a public option/single-payer system?

Unemplyment extended to what, 99 weeks? Social Security Disability (see last 60 minutes program) benefits at record highs... Food Stamps enrollment at record highs...
1. Unemployment benefits last a while but they aren't much. Go on, check how much people can get in each state vs. the cost of living. Nobody's living large on unemployment money.
2. Disability enrollment is at an all-time high because a lot of people are unemployable. Jobs for them simply do not exist, and the jobs they worked in the past, coupled with generally poor health and prospects, have left them with few options but to get on disability. Disability wasn't supposed to be that kind of safety net, but that's what it has become because we have such a crappy safety net in general. It's become our welfare program of last resort. I don't think this is a good thing, but if you are suggesting we just kick people off of disability and tell them to go get jobs, you don't understand the reality of the situation.
3. Food stamps are being cut. Also, did you notice the economy sucks? Wall Street investors and corporate executives are making money hand over fist. Most others are barely making it, if they're making it at all. Again, cutting programs they need to get by isn't "helping" them by any stretch.

All missmanaged and filled with fraud. Now we can look forward to that in our Healthcare as well.
The food stamp fraud rate is somewhere around 1.7%. Hardly "filled with fraud." Not sure about the others, but I do know it is a long and arduous process to get on disability, so it's not like everybody and their brother is doing it. It often takes years and lengthy legal processes. No one does this because they are too lazy to get a job or something.

One off the top of my head is Obama's removal of the work requirement for welfare.
See, now you're just repeating a right-wing lie. Obama did no such thing. All Obama did was allow individual states to request waivers to the federal work requirement guidelines for certain types of assistance, so that states could manage their welfare spending as they saw fit. It wasn't a "gimme" to lazy welfare queens.

But your mind is made up... Obama gave us the ACA, and the voters want more goodies. When the number of folks receiving these bennies start to outnumber the folks paying in, we'll be in trouble. (see Social Security) But noone seems to care.
Yes, such horror, that people might want access to health insurance and medical care. What a dystopia. America is over.

You can't even argue as if you inhabit reality. You are living in some strange fantasy land where libruls have taken over everything and promised everyone an easy life of relaxation, free of want or hardship. No such thing has happened, but our politicians (Democrats and Republicans included, but mainly Republicans) have done everything they could over the past 30 years to destroy income mobility and eliminate opportunities for Americans to improve themselves and their lives. When the economy cratered in 2008, it accelerated those trends for a great many people. Your "solution" is to make things even harder for them, rather than help them at all.

I'm not kicking anyone around, but I'm not afraid of change either. There is NOTHING unfair about the Fair Tax system.
Flat taxes are inherently unfair because they penalize people with lower discretionary incomes.

But that's the problem isn't it? You don't think things should be fair.
How do you define "fair"? I define it as everyone having adequate food, shelter, medical care, education, and opportunities and assistance to help everyone better themselves, regardless of where they are in life. The outcomes won't be the same for everyone, but when so many start with the deck stacked against them, or later have the rug pulled out from under them, you're looking at a system that is deeply unfair, a system that has rewarded a few at the expense of many, and your notion of making it "fairer" involves kicking those with the least down a few more rungs on the ladder.

There is actually a very strong correlation between a country's income inequality and its economic mobility, particularly across generational lines. In other words, the greater the income disparity between the richest and the poorest, the less likely it is you will be able to improve your own economic situation. Don't take my word for it, this is a well-researched area. Western Europeans enjoy greater economic mobility than Americans, and yet they are socialist hellholes or something. Strange.

OK, you know best. The 47% (or whatever the number is) is real, whether is is polically correct or not. That number will rise and shit will really hit the fan.
No one's disputing that about half the population has been left out in the cold, we just disagree on what should be done about it.
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Old October 9 2013, 06:47 PM   #513
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
To Yanks:

It's like this, idiot...
Did you forget that you weren't in TNZ?

Infraction for flaming. Comments to PM.
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Old October 9 2013, 07:20 PM   #514
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

It get's crazier

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...extortion.html

The White House on Tuesday morning said that Mr Obama had called Mr Boehner and re-iterated his position that he was "willing to negotiate" on spending, but only when the "threat of government shutdown and default have been removed."
Later, Mr Obama qualified that position saying for the first time he was prepared to give formal, written assurances that he would negotiate with Republicans on key budget items - but again only once they had passed a no-strings-attached funding bill.
"If my word's not good enough, and I've told them I'm happy to talk about it, if they want to specify all the items they think need to be topic of conversation, I'm happy to do it," he said.
These include items such as ending an unpopular tax on medical devices that is part of the Obamacare health reforms, and reforms to reduce entitlement spending by linking it to a different measure of inflation.
The Obama 'offer' was rejected Mr Boehner inside an hour: "What the president said today was if there's unconditional surrender by Republicans, he'll sit down and talk to us. That's not the way our government works," he said at a press conference on Capitol Hill.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation but it appears to be.

"We will not allow a clean bill to come before the house, we will only support a bill which defunds the PPACA. We will not negotiate on this point. But if you don't mind unconditonally surrendering to our position we would be happy to talk."

The situtation could seriously harm the global economy, of wich the USA is a part of. It could also damage the USA's reputation abroad.
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Last edited by MacLeod; October 9 2013 at 08:07 PM.
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Old October 9 2013, 07:31 PM   #515
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

MacLeod wrote: View Post

The situtation could seriously harm the global economy, of wich the USA is a part of. It could also damage the USA's reputation abroad.
I'm thinking the Tea Party thinks Obama won't want to be framed as the man "who sunk the world's economy".

They're counting on their media machine to drown out all common-sense and pin the potential default on Obama.
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Old October 9 2013, 07:48 PM   #516
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Not sure that strategy will work as well as they think (well at least in certain countries and perhaps not in some states in the USA). I suspect many outside of the USA no were to place more of the blame.
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Old October 9 2013, 07:59 PM   #517
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Actually being obstinate is how Presidents like Reagan came to be regarded as great. Sticking to his principles is exactly what the President should be doing. We elected him to do that. Those of us who agree with the President standing up to the Republicans in general and the Tea Party in particular should show our support.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:34 PM   #518
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Yanks wrote: View Post
Im N Ur Childhoodz wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
It is different from the free ride half the country gets now.
So, pretty please with a cherry on top, shut up about half the country being freeloaders, because that's an insulting load of shit. Also, I'd bet many of those "freeloaders" have contributed a great deal more in taxes than you have.
You obviously, and most likely purposefully misunderstood my comment. No information you posted is new to me.
What part of "half the country gets a free ride" did I misunderstand or misrepresent, exactly? Please explain.

And I'm pretty sure it is new information to you, or that you simply didn't read it, because you reiterate the same insulting myths below. When you say "those that do pay," what does the opposite of that imply?

I very simply meant those don't "have a stake" like those that do pay.
Once again, almost everyone pays federal, state, and local taxes in some way and at some time in their lives. Some more than others, but often it actually balances out as a percentage of total income when you consider the loopholes and incentives you can take advantage of when you can afford to pay someone a decent sum just to manage your money/assets and do your taxes for you.

They feel less ownership and are more likely to vote to line their pockets.
See, now I know you didn't read what I posted, or else you would know that a majority of the people who don't currently pay federal income tax are a combination of the elderly, active duty military in combat, and white rural poor and unemployed; groups that are more traditionally conservative voters and make up a large part of the Tea Party especially. So, where does that leave your theory about them voting for entitlements for themselves?

Also, you profoundly misunderstand attitudes in this country. Contrary to popular belief, very few people as a percentage of overall workers sue their employers or seek worker's compensation even when they are justifiably injured on the job. Many poor people see themselves as being rich one day and fervently believe in the outdated concept of the American Dream despite all the evidence to the contrary. People vote or act against their own best interests all the time here, either because they've been taught that it's okay for your employer to treat you and the labor force in general like crap in the former case, or because they think everyone has an equal opportunity and we can all pull ourselves up by our bootstraps in the latter case, despite that actually being fairly exceptional these days.

Another reason I support the Fair Tax.
A tax that places a greater burden on the already beleaguered middle class (which has been whittled down by decades of union busting activities) and favors the top 1% of earners. Joy.

As you don't know my financial status or history nor the financial status of those "freeloaders" as you put it, your statement is rather narrow-minded, naive and flawed.
No shit I don't know your financial status, chief. That's kinda why I said "I bet you've paid less in federal income taxes than many of the people you're calling freeloaders." "I bet," as in it's an educated guess, since one of the biggest chunks of people you were calling freeloaders are in fact retired elderly people of various levels of wealth who had previously paid income taxes for more than 45-50 years.

So, which part am I flawed, naive, and narrow-minded about (which are hilarious insults coming from you given your fountain of angry nonsense spewing in this thread)? Or are you seriously going to contend that you've paid more in taxes than all of them? BTW, I'm not asking for you to present your financials, I'm simply asking you not to be so goddamn blinded by Tea Party/far right-wing rhetoric and slamming people who have contributed a great deal to this country as freeloading parasites.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:40 PM   #519
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Actually being obstinate is how Presidents like Reagan came to be regarded as great. Sticking to his principles is exactly what the President should be doing. We elected him to do that. Those of us who agree with the President standing up to the Republicans in general and the Tea Party in particular should show our support.
He certainly has mine on this issue. He needs to stand firm on this.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:58 PM   #520
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

I just hope they come to a solution soon...

Federal Shutdown Means No New Beer
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Old October 9 2013, 09:08 PM   #521
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Well they've still got a week or so left, before the US debt celling is reached.

The problem is that the closer it gets the more nervous the markets get.
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Old October 9 2013, 09:21 PM   #522
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

I love this thread so much.
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Old October 9 2013, 09:43 PM   #523
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Rather than change a tax system, would it not be better to close the loopholes?

No matter what system you use or however many loopholes you close. People will always try and pay the minimum ampount of tax they have to by law. Yes it can be annoying when someone uses a loophole to avoid paying tax but is that their fault of the fault of those who draft the tax laws?
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Old October 9 2013, 10:53 PM   #524
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

BillJ wrote: View Post
IndyJones wrote: View Post

They're not even his schemes. Those paragraphs are copied and pasted, without attribution, from this page at fairtax.org.
What are you laughing at.

I go to the source...
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Old October 9 2013, 10:55 PM   #525
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Rather than change a tax system, would it not be better to close the loopholes?

No matter what system you use or however many loopholes you close. People will always try and pay the minimum ampount of tax they have to by law. Yes it can be annoying when someone uses a loophole to avoid paying tax but is that their fault of the fault of those who draft the tax laws?
Those that draft the tax laws make the loop-holes.

I'd rather take them out of the picture.
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