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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 28 2013, 11:25 PM   #16
Opus
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Location: Bloom County
Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

This wasn't too hard to follow:

Marcus sends Kirk and the Enterprise to the edge of Klingon Space to fire torpedoes into a supposed barren area of Kronos (Qu'onos). A secret computer virus is implanted in the ship's computer by Section 31 to disable Enterprise while out there. Enterprise fires torpedoes. Klingons find Enterprise disabled. Klingons destroy Enterprise and the war Marcus wants begins.

Marcus was never going to spare Enterprise' crew. He sent them to slaughter to begin with.
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Old September 28 2013, 11:27 PM   #17
SeerSGB
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

Makarov wrote: View Post
I really think they should have taken out the "I was never going to spare your crew" line. The only reason that's in there is to dumb it down, and tell the audience, here's the bad guy. It ruins the wonderful ambiguity that they just set up.
Opus wrote: View Post
This wasn't too hard to follow:

Marcus sends Kirk and the Enterprise to the edge of Klingon Space to fire torpedoes into a supposed barren area of Kronos (Qu'onos). A secret computer virus is implanted in the ship's computer by Section 31 to disable Enterprise while out there. Enterprise fires torpedoes. Klingons find Enterprise disabled. Klingons destroy Enterprise and the war Marcus wants begins.

Marcus was never going to spare Enterprise' crew. He sent them to slaughter to begin with.
Hell, for all we know Scotty could have been right: something in the torpedoes fucked with the workings of the warp-core.
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Old September 28 2013, 11:29 PM   #18
Maurice
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
--Captain James T. Kirk, "Where No Man Has Gone Before."
To be accurate, Kirk was quoting a few words from a larger statement, which is even more germane to Marcus.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton
in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887
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Old September 29 2013, 01:43 AM   #19
The Wormhole
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

James T Kirk wrote: View Post
Ok so how did this guy become an Admiral?
Starfleet Admirals have almost always been evil, corrupt, or just a general pain in the ass. One of the few decent ones was Admiral Ross, and even he collaborated with Section 31.

The character just doesnt make any sense at all.
They could have been a bit clearer with his motivations and he does come off as a clichéd moustache-twirling bad guy. And Vengeance is as subtle as a sledgehammer. But the basics of the character make sense. He's a Starfleet Admiral who feels he needs to militarize Starfleet to save the Federation from its own pacifism.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:02 AM   #20
Black Cloud S31
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

Of course he needs to kill them all othervise he will be frontpage news.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:04 PM   #21
James T Kirk
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

Does it really seem that reasonable though that a complete psychopath like this would become a Starfleet Admiral?

I don't see where all admirals have always been corrupt or evil. Admiral Hanson from Best of Both Worlds seemed alright. And the blonde admiral from TNG seemed normal enough.

This guy is just a bit over the top imo.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:12 PM   #22
Opus
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

I don't know.

Marcus believed he was doing the right thing by sacrificing Enterprise and its crew and starting a war with the Klingons to ensure the security of The Federation. There were probably more than a few in the upper echelon at Starfleet, after witnessing the distruction of The Kelvin and Vulcan, and the near destruction of earth, who felt that security at any cost was a plausible stance, which would include building up Starfleet as a military power and locking down on individual freedoms.

This is not the Prime Universe.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:15 PM   #23
SeerSGB
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

James T Kirk wrote: View Post
Does it really seem that reasonable though that a complete psychopath like this would become a Starfleet Admiral?

I don't see where all admirals have always been corrupt or evil. Admiral Hanson from Best of Both Worlds seemed alright. And the blonde admiral from TNG seemed normal enough.

This guy is just a bit over the top imo.
We don't know when Marcus snapped. When stacked against the likes of Cartwright, Pressman, and Leyton, Marcus is the average.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:41 PM   #24
Khan444
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

Admiral Cartwright tried to sabotage Klingon/Federation peace talks. Janeway somehow got promoted to Admiral AFTER all the crap she pulled in Voyager instead of rotting in prison where she belonged. You did have a good Admiral in the movie, Pike.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:52 PM   #25
Franklin
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

James T Kirk wrote: View Post
Does it really seem that reasonable though that a complete psychopath like this would become a Starfleet Admiral?

I don't see where all admirals have always been corrupt or evil. Admiral Hanson from Best of Both Worlds seemed alright. And the blonde admiral from TNG seemed normal enough.

This guy is just a bit over the top imo.
Weller was wonderful as the character, son. Shit, he stole the show when he was on screen. I bet that bastard brushed his teeth with bourbon, son.

The thing that should scare folks is that he was not a psychopath. I once posted in some thread that he reminded me of Curtis LeMay. Someone (M'Sharak?) responded that Weller, himself mentioned LeMay as someone who influenced his character. LeMay was incredibly respected as a general and was pivotal to U.S. success in the air war in Europe and the Pacific in World War II. If he had had his way, he also would've started a pre-emptive nuclear war to defeat the USSR in the early 1960s even though he knew millions would die. Marcus was distressingly close to art imitating life.

Also, as far as starting a war for the sake of war goes, we still don't know fully what happened to the Maine in 1898 that started the Spanish-American war. But someone was looking for a pretense for war, and there is was, convenient or created.

Sane minds do dastardly things for what they believe to be very good reasons. It could keep one up at night thinking about people like that out there.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:57 PM   #26
Black Cloud S31
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

James T Kirk wrote: View Post
Does it really seem that reasonable though that a complete psychopath like this would become a Starfleet Admiral?

I don't see where all admirals have always been corrupt or evil. Admiral Hanson from Best of Both Worlds seemed alright. And the blonde admiral from TNG seemed normal enough.

This guy is just a bit over the top imo.
From everything what we saw this Federations is less utopian.
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Old September 29 2013, 08:00 PM   #27
Khan444
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

I also don't think that Admiral Marcus was a psychopath. I think that he had become an extremist after decades of Cold War between the Klingons and the Federation. He believed that war was inevitable and wanted to fight it now, while he had Khan's advanced weaponry to give him an advantage. He genuinely believe that he was doing something that would ultimately help the Federation, so doing some questionable things and sacrificing some lives was a small price to pay. He was an "ends justify the means" kind of thinker. Being a huge Military History buff, I fully agree that Marcus reminded me of General Lemay later on in his career.
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Old September 29 2013, 08:53 PM   #28
Black Cloud S31
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

The US is a democracy and Curtis LeMay was cut out of similar cloth.
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Old September 29 2013, 09:54 PM   #29
M'Sharak
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

Franklin wrote: View Post
James T Kirk wrote: View Post
Does it really seem that reasonable though that a complete psychopath like this would become a Starfleet Admiral?

I don't see where all admirals have always been corrupt or evil. Admiral Hanson from Best of Both Worlds seemed alright. And the blonde admiral from TNG seemed normal enough.

This guy is just a bit over the top imo.
Weller was wonderful as the character, son. Shit, he stole the show when he was on screen. I bet that bastard brushed his teeth with bourbon, son.

The thing that should scare folks is that he was not a psychopath. I once posted in some thread that he reminded me of Curtis LeMay. Someone (M'Sharak?) responded that Weller, himself mentioned LeMay as someone who influenced his character. LeMay was incredibly respected as a general and was pivotal to U.S. success in the air war in Europe and the Pacific in World War II. If he had had his way, he also would've started a pre-emptive nuclear war to defeat the USSR in the early 1960s even though he knew millions would die. Marcus was distressingly close to art imitating life.

...
I think the interview originally appeared at StarTrek.com, but Weller's answer regarding Lemay as a model for the Marcus character and characterization was quoted in this TrekToday piece. It's not long, so I'll quote it here:
TrekToday wrote:
According to Peter Weller, Star Trek into Darkness‘ Admiral Marcus is not dissimilar from a relatively unknown historical figure from the early 1960s.

Like that historical figure, the admiral wanted to strike first and take the advantage that doing so would bring.

“Marcus is no different than Curtis LeMay, with a conscience,” said Weller. “I don’t know if people remember who Curtis LeMay [was], but he hid eighteen nuclear missiles from President John F. Kennedy. He was the guy who wanted to pull the trigger on the Cuban Missile Crisis. If you see Fog of War, it was all about ‘First strike! First strike!’ That’s a warmonger. So these warmongers exist, man, and LeMay personifies that. They were real. They are real. The thing that Marcus doesn’t have is faith in the pacifistic attitude of this particular terrestrial organization because the Klingons are aggressive. A war is coming. They’re encroaching. And what Marcus is thinking is he wants to get a jump on them, just like Curtis LeMay. Anybody who is critical of this, just watch the Errol Morris documentary Fog of War. It’s from 2003, and listen to [Robert McNamara] talk about LeMay.”

“Here are the facts,” said Weller, “as Marcus sees them: ‘The Klingons are coming. They’re aggressive. I don’t believe in the pacifistic whoo-ha, touchy-feely, go-out-five-years-and-explore-brave-new-worlds …horseshit. There’s a war coming on.’ So what I do is I take out the plutonium nukes, if you will, called Khan. I take them out. And I made a mistake. I even say it. So I don’t know what people are missing. He’s a guy who did it, by his own conscience, to protect his own particular world and then realizes that he fucked up. Now, the thing that makes him bad, from a moralistic view, is that he’s willing to sacrifice Kirk and the Enterprise to put this thing back in its shell. And he feels that’s a calculated risk. ‘I was never going to spare your crew.’”
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Old September 29 2013, 10:28 PM   #30
The Wormhole
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Re: The Admirals character makes no sense whatsoever

James T Kirk wrote: View Post
Does it really seem that reasonable though that a complete psychopath like this would become a Starfleet Admiral?

I don't see where all admirals have always been corrupt or evil. Admiral Hanson from Best of Both Worlds seemed alright. And the blonde admiral from TNG seemed normal enough.
You want to go there?

Evil and Corrupt Starfleet Admirals from the Prime Universe:

Mark Jameson: In his lower ranked days, gave advanced weapons to both sides in a planetary civil war. As an Admiral, overdosed on anti-aging serum
Norah Satie: Carried out a witch hunt on the Enterprise and accused anyone and everyone of being a spy, saboteur, threat to the Federation
Erik Pressman: As a Captain illegally developed a cloaking device resulting in loss of ship and most of its crew. As an admiral tried to cover it up and acted like a douchebag.
William Ross: Collaborated with Section 31, resulting in an innocent Romulan politician being framed and imprisoned.
Leyton: Tried to stage a coup against the Federation President.
Kennelly: Helped the Cardassians attack Federation outposts and frame the Bajorans and manipulate Starfleet into fighting the Bajorans.
Matthew Dougherty: Helped the Son'a forcibly relocate the Ba'ku. This one's tricky, though, since he was under direct orders of the Federation Council and therefore not technically a renegade, even if he is one of the movie's villains.
Cartwright: Where do we start? Conspiracy to assassinate the Klingon Chancellor and Federation President, framing other Starfleet officers, attempting to start a war between the Federation and the Klingons...
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