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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 27 2013, 05:43 AM   #16
Timewalker
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

R. Star wrote: View Post
Wouldn't a turtle's shell keep it safe from the scorpion on it's back anyways?
I'm pretty sure that turtles can't swim if all their extremities are inside the shell, and the animal in Northern Exposure was a snake, not a scorpion.

I might be mistaken about the turtle, but it was a two-syllable animal capable of swimming across a river, and native to Alaska. I definitely remember the snake part.
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Old September 27 2013, 05:45 AM   #17
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

I like the idea of the animal being a fox because then it's about an animal with clever sneaky attributes coming undone.
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Old September 27 2013, 05:53 AM   #18
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Well, it was a snake in Northern Exposure. I remember that because the character was singing, not talking. The number of syllables and the rhyme were important.
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Old September 27 2013, 06:10 AM   #19
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Northern Exposure is one atmospheric blur to me now, with annoying bits.
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Old September 27 2013, 08:18 AM   #20
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

You're All participating in the longest game of Greek Whispers ever.
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Old September 27 2013, 09:06 AM   #21
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

I provided a link to Wikipedia's analysis on the first page of this thread which features the essential variations of the fable. Here's my take on it:
  • The Frog and the Mouse: The frog is the anatgonist and offers the mouse a free ride. But while carrying the mouse across the river he deliberately submerges to drown the mouse. But the mouse is holding on to the frog, both are spotted by a bird of prey which eats the mouse and the frog. The morality of this fable: What goes around comes around
  • The Turtle and the Snake / the Scorpion: The snake / scorpion is the antagonist and tries to bite / sting the turtle while crossing the river. The turtle submerges, the snake / scorpion drowns. The morality of this fable: Don't bite the hand that feeds you
  • The Frog / Fox and the Scorpion: The scorpion is the antagonist, the frog / fox is being naive. The reasoning of the carrier is that the scorpion won't sting because then he would also drown. But the scorpion can't help it because it's in his "nature". The morality of this fable: Once a street rat always a street rat (my own bad personal experience would suggest this isn't too far from the truth, but I might be biased)
While the morality of the last fable is an issue of debate (it suggests that bad people will not change their attitudes), I think it perfectly fits the context of this particular episode of VOY.

The Borg won't change their ways because they feel that their way is the best to improve living conditions and bring order to the galaxy. You can't really reason with them because they think they're right and everybody else is wrong.

It has been mentioned that the fable of the Frog and the Scorpion doesn't really make sense. Why should the frog offer a natural enemy a free ride. The rationalization had been that somehow the frog needs the scorpion as a navigator, so they are mutually dependent on one another to embark on this fateful ride together. Again, it works in the context of the VOY episode.

Bob
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Old September 27 2013, 09:28 AM   #22
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Goddamn it. When do we get a story where the swimming animal and the passenger animal become friends? That's what Roddenberry would have wanted.
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Old September 27 2013, 10:01 AM   #23
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Flipper ran for 4 years, until Gentle Ben ate him after a lovers tiff

Oh Robbie, Robbie, Robbie.

Janeway thought that she was the Frog because she's bat shit crazy.

SEVEN: When your Captain first approached us, we suspected that an agreement with humans would prove impossible to maintain. You are erratic, conflicted, disorganised. Every decision is debated. Every action questioned. Every individual entitled to their own small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your undoing.
Above is Seven saying that the Borg clearly believed that they would be betrayed by humanity, despite how awesome they are, as Chakotay slid back on the deal and tried to screw over his allies, refusing to fight the war Janeway agreed to, and only then did he murder dozens of drones to compensate for his tiny tattoo.

SEVEN: I have regained full contact with the Collective.
JANEWAY: What are they saying?
SEVEN: All remaining bio-ships in the Delta Quadrant are returning to their realm. The Borg have prevailed.
JANEWAY: With a little help from us. Now it's time you fulfilled your end of the agreement. Tell the Collective we expect safe passage from here on out. We'll give you a shuttlecraft. You can head for the nearest Borg ship.
SEVEN: Unacceptable. This alliance is terminated. Your ship and its crew will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
Notice how Janeway has forgotten the dozens of spaced Drones? Chakotay pissed away any good faith they might have had, and taking Voyager from that point was just tit for tat and pay back.

Of Course Janeway was operating in bad faith, in line with Sevens earlier prediction about the destructive and duplicitous inherit dyed in the wool nature of human beings, which turned into a death blow the instant Seven complained about the kick in the nads the collective had just got.

Lets break this down...

Seven: "How dare you kill my friends! You must die!"

Kathy: "How dare you complain about me killing your friends! For that you must die!"

Voyager was the scorpion.

Voyager was a tiny speck riding the Collectives coolness, and then in a fit, chipped off and leggy blond, and wouldn't give her back.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; September 27 2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Old September 27 2013, 10:34 AM   #24
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

^^ Interesting interpretation! The "scorpion" is always the other side that can't be trusted.

Bob
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Old September 27 2013, 10:54 AM   #25
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Seven sacrificed her ship and tens of thousand of drones (those things are big) to save Voyager from 8472. Boom. In return, quid pro quo for that ultimate sacrifice, acting Captain Chuckles calls her an asshole and finishes off the remainder of her comrads 20 minutes later.
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Old September 27 2013, 06:30 PM   #26
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Moral of the story: Never help anyone cross the river. You're just gonna get screwed.
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Old September 27 2013, 07:42 PM   #27
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Do you think Charon lets scorpions onto his ferry across the river Styxx?
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Old September 27 2013, 07:48 PM   #28
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

1. Only if they have a coin to pay the passage.

2. What difference would it make if the scorpion stung anyone/anything? They're all dead anyway.
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Old September 27 2013, 07:57 PM   #29
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Because it hurts.

You were supposed to put a coin in each eye.

Spiders can have as many as 12 eyes.

Is that really fair?
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; September 27 2013 at 09:53 PM.
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Old September 27 2013, 08:49 PM   #30
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Re: Chakotay's Scorpion tale

Charon probably uses turtles to pull the ferry, and scorpions to motivate the turtles. A single turtle goes out of line? BAM. Deadsville.
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