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Old April 21 2014, 09:12 PM   #4846
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

^Or it could be more a matter of utilizing a resource until it has no further use. Or, to quote the Red Skull, "There are always more workers."
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Old April 21 2014, 09:14 PM   #4847
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

I thought of Raina but didn't mention her because the Nazis had no problem with exploiting people they considered to be their genetic inferiors in order to achieve victory, and Garrett's treatment of Raina seemed along those lines (exploitative I mean, not anything racial), so it doesn't really bolster the point as well as personal expressions of love or respect, IMO.
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Old April 21 2014, 09:24 PM   #4848
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Hydra 2014, designed a master race that was not divided down racial lines, but test scores.

Same shit.
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Old April 21 2014, 10:08 PM   #4849
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I think this discussion is running into two underlying issues:

1. I think one of the basic problems with the films' and show's depiction of Hydra is that we don't really get a sense of their political agenda. We know that, like a certain genetically-enhanced mouse, they want to Try To Take Over The World -- but like with the Brain, we have no real idea what they'd do with it, what the World According to Hydra would look like, except insofar as we get this vague sense of their being fascist due to the presence of pseudo-fascist iconography and their origins within the Nazi Party.
As stated in the movie, the goal is essentially a totalitarian peace. They want a world where there are no wars or violence simply because no one has the freedom to do anything. They don't trust people because people are dumb, panicky dangerous animals.

2. I for one find it highly implausible that an organization that literally grew out of the Nazi Party could possibly not be fundamentally racist in nature. Fascist movements are essentially based on the psychology of tribalism; they fetishize the "in group" and try to create a sense of both superiority to, and beseigment from, whatever "out groups" the in-group is set against.
The "in group" is HYDRA. They trust HYDRA and distrust everyone else. It's probably better to think of HYDRA as Nazi-allied rather than from the Nazi Party. While it was certainly created by Schmidt, he eventually rejected even Hitler. It also recruited scientists outside the Nazi Party, like a Swiss scientist by the name of Armin Zola who did more to shape HYDRA as a part of SHIELD than anyone else. His goal always seemed to be science uber alles, not race.

Hitler gave them the resources they needed to do their experiments, but the man in charge always seemed to have his own agenda as well and saw himself better than Hitler. It was this influence that led them to continue to develop. It's like those who wonder if Nazi Germany could have been able to fight better had they not diverted resources to the final solution or if they had not invaded the east. To me, that question is oxymoronic. Hitler's ideology was tied to the final solution and the subjugation of the Slavic peoples. Had he not done those two things, he wouldn't have done anything. However, HYDRA is along that line of thinking. For people who view power as the ends in itself, the ends of the Nazi party are needless distractions that weaken that end. To make a long post short, I don't find it implausible, as you seem to say, just something that was an alternate history that you have to think about a bit to reach.

i'm with Alidar on this.

Also, HYDRA has spent 70 years (like 3generations) within SHIELD, WAAAAY more than within the Nazi Party. More than enough time for HYDRA recruits to forget the origins, or at least rationalize the distance from that time.

By now, HYDRA has recruited people like Garrett, who aren't as idealistic as Coulson. They aren't Nazi's, but they are cynical enough to subscribe to a dominate government as a viable option. They could easily recruit people from here in Chicago who see election after election incumbents re-elected with no opposition (or an electorate not willing to vote different). Such things would make people turn against the current state of America; HYDRA might sound appealing.

Planned Parenthood would certainly distance themselves from Margaret Sanger's racist remarks, or Southern Baptists on their own racist history.
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Old April 21 2014, 10:17 PM   #4850
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

In the comics Hydra is part of an origin Myth. It's 10's of thousands of years old.

In the comics Leonardo DaVinci was an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Yes I remember the mini movie with Peggy now, but Hydra and/or S.H.I.E.L.D. could still seriously predate World War 2.
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Old April 21 2014, 10:29 PM   #4851
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

I think there is some confusion here. The Nazis where white supremacists they were not necessarily racist (some were). They actually admired other races like the Japanese and Tibetans. Losing to Jesse Owen in the 1934 Berlin Olympics wasn't as earth-shattering as myths make it out to be. Their big hang up was race mixing. So having a relationship with Raina, Skye or Mei was no big deal but having kids with them would be bad.
Now the Japanese are your classical racist.
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Old April 21 2014, 10:35 PM   #4852
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Also people are missing a very important point. HYDRA doesn't have an ideology. Even in the first Captain America they were a cult of personality. Strip away the goofy salute and their masturbatory fantasy of world domination and what do you get, Nothing.
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Old April 21 2014, 10:38 PM   #4853
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Yminale wrote: View Post
I think there is some confusion here. The Nazis where white supremacists they were not necessarily racist (some were).
Sounds like the confusion is yours, if you think those aren't the same thing. A white supremacist is someone who thinks their own race is superior to other races. That is the very definition of racism.
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Old April 21 2014, 10:47 PM   #4854
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
I think there is some confusion here. The Nazis where white supremacists they were not necessarily racist (some were).
Sounds like the confusion is yours, if you think those aren't the same thing. A white supremacist is someone who thinks their own race is superior to other races. That is the very definition of racism.
Racism is an irrational hatred of another race. You can believe in the superiority of your own race and not hate other races.
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Old April 21 2014, 11:45 PM   #4855
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Yminale wrote: View Post
Racism is an irrational hatred of another race. You can believe in the superiority of your own race and not hate other races.
And nobody who belongs to one of those other races would consider that a meaningful distinction.

Anyway, here's how the dictionary defines racism:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
So you're absolutely wrong. Any belief that one race is better than others, whether based on emotion or not, is racism by definition. Even believing that races are fundamentally different or separate from one another is racism. And any government or party whose policies or laws are founded on racial distinctions of any kind, as was certainly true of the Nazis, is certainly racist.
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Old April 22 2014, 12:29 AM   #4856
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

It's probably safe to say that HYDRA was an offshoot of the Nazi Party or was once associated with it, but the modern-day organization that Zola reestablished has its own agenda of world domination.

I'm surprised they would label HYDRA as a terrorist group. Isn't that a misnomer? HYDRA is about domination, repression, and authoritarianism, and much like the repressive Galactic Empire, it seeks to achieve world (or galactic) peace and order through subjugation. Terrorists are rebellious by nature and wreaks havoc and destruction.
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Old April 22 2014, 12:47 AM   #4857
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Well, in order to achieve order, they spread chaos. The goal was to get people to be so afraid of the chaos that they themselves were spreading that they'd turn to them to stop it.
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Old April 22 2014, 12:56 AM   #4858
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
Racism is an irrational hatred of another race. You can believe in the superiority of your own race and not hate other races.
And nobody who belongs to one of those other races would consider that a meaningful distinction.
That's your opinion. If you look at French society, their sense of superiority is expressed as benign neglect against non-whites. Is it wrong. Sure. Is it hateful, I don't think so. There is a big difference between not caring and active engagement.

Anyway, here's how the dictionary defines
The dictionary definition is inadequate. Modern racism especially in the US and Europe is based on the sense that non-whites are aliens, not they are inferior. There is also an element of the fear of the loss of status which is the opposite of the dictionary definition.

And I am not wrong about the Nazis. All National Socialist believed in German superiority, not all of them were antisemitic or traditionally what would we call racist. Red Skull and HYDRA are not the outlier you want to make them out to be.
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Old April 22 2014, 12:58 AM   #4859
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Gryffindorian wrote: View Post
I'm surprised they would label HYDRA as a terrorist group. Isn't that a misnomer?
Terrorist is just another name for evil used in pop culture.
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Old April 22 2014, 12:58 AM   #4860
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Well, in order to achieve order, they spread chaos. The goal was to get people to be so afraid of the chaos that they themselves were spreading that they'd turn to them to stop it.
Or rather, to make people so afraid that they'd tolerate having their personal freedoms eroded and a police state established in the name of security, thereby essentially handing themselves over to HYDRA. It's an allegory for modern concerns about the surveillance state and the PATRIOT act and so forth: Have we compromised our freedom too much out of fear?
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