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Old April 11 2014, 12:17 PM   #4456
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

^ To be fair, I'm not sure John Garrett had any morals to begin with even as a loyal SHIELD agent.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr Light wrote: View Post
So do most people assume that Garrett is the Clairvoyant? Because to me they never actually came out and said that.
I think that's the idea, but the name "the Clairvoyant" was really a red herring both on HYDRA's part and the producers' part, so it's not really that important to match the label to a person. What matters is that Garrett was behind the whole Centipede/Clairvoyant plot. Does he have superiors directing him? Undoubtedly, since we know that
But will those superiors be a plot point in the show? We don't know yet, and I don't think the "Clairvoyant" title really matters anymore given the new status quo.


Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Kitik, I'm of the opinion that, if any characters make it back to the comics, it should be Fitz and Simmons (before Melinda May).
May strikes me as the kind of character who'd fit right into the comics. She's even got an alliterative name and a nickname. Although the comics would probably insist on making her younger and bustier. And as an action heroine, she could fit into a SHIELD or superhero story pretty easily. I like Fitz-Simmons, but it might be harder to find story roles for them in existing series.
That's why I added that parenthetical. It sounds like it should be May. But there are two reasons why I'm making this argument. One, asskickers are kind of dime a dozen and, short of a SHIELD series, harder to fit in when you have superheroes. Fitz-Simmons are more support staff, which makes them easier to squeeze into a story - similar to how Coulson is in the comics. He's not the lead, he just plays his role. Second, I think Fitz-Simmons are unquestionably the most popular characters to have been introduced so far. People seem to like May too, but she's a cypher who rarely speaks and we still don't know much about her backstory. I think people haven't quite fully warmed up to her yet.
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Old April 11 2014, 01:29 PM   #4457
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

shivkala wrote: View Post
I'm not happy with Garrett's motivation for switching, the cliched, "I saw which side was going to win and I gave up all of my allegiances and morals just to join the other side."

I'm wondering if Ward doesn't have the whole eye device thing. His look at the end could have been an indication he was reading a message. It would also explain his sudden shooting of Nash.
Good call on Ward possibly having an eye device and the "meaning" of the "look".

But I agree with AJ, with respect to what Garrett said, that the insight it provides is that he's really amoral to begin with.
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Old April 11 2014, 02:11 PM   #4458
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Considering how huge the production staff for Winter Soldier and Agents of Shield are, I'm just surprised no one leaked any spoilers for such big revelations. Come to think about it, no one spoiled Day of The Doctor either. Have production teams gotten a lot better at keeping secrets?
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Old April 11 2014, 02:19 PM   #4459
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

intrinsical wrote: View Post
Considering how huge the production staff for Winter Soldier and Agents of Shield are, I'm just surprised no one leaked any spoilers for such big revelations. Come to think about it, no one spoiled Day of The Doctor either. Have production teams gotten a lot better at keeping secrets?
I assume you haven't seen the Marvel Studios: Assembling a Universe TV Special. They spoiled the hell out of CA:TWS.
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Old April 11 2014, 02:42 PM   #4460
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

I hope this doesn't spoil anything, but as it's from Avengers I don't think it should.

I was wondering why the World Council would be so against forming the Avengers (by cancelling the initiative, they said the personalities wouldn't work, but that's not really a convincing reason, for me) and then trying to kill them all (by launching a nuclear strike on them). Hydra may just have wanted no Avengers around to stop their plans. And then Fury defied the council so his days were numbered.

About Ward, that scene from his childhood seemed like he was in some kind of hostile environment when he was growing up, Hydra Youth, maybe?
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Old April 11 2014, 03:19 PM   #4461
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
People seem to like May too, but she's a cypher who rarely speaks and we still don't know much about her backstory. I think people haven't quite fully warmed up to her yet.
Actually she's had a lot of lengthy monologues in the past 2-3 episodes. I think the whole "rarely speaks" thing has fallen by the wayside. She was closed off to begin with, but being on the team has drawn her out more.



bbjeg wrote: View Post
I assume you haven't seen the Marvel Studios: Assembling a Universe TV Special. They spoiled the hell out of CA:TWS.
I did see that special, and I don't agree. They "spoiled" the Winter Soldier's true identity -- something that the whole comics audience already knew -- but even after watching the special, I was still entirely surprised by the HYDRA reveal in the film, and by the revelations of who was working for HYDRA. If anything, they used the Winter Soldier-identity spoiler to distract us from the bigger spoilers, and it worked.



Marsden wrote: View Post
I was wondering why the World Council would be so against forming the Avengers (by cancelling the initiative, they said the personalities wouldn't work, but that's not really a convincing reason, for me) and then trying to kill them all (by launching a nuclear strike on them). Hydra may just have wanted no Avengers around to stop their plans. And then Fury defied the council so his days were numbered.
No --


It's not hard to understand why the Council was skeptical of the Avengers Initiative. I mean, look at the roster. A dissolute, borderline-unstable bad-boy billionaire. A fugitive doctor who occasionally turns into an unstoppable rage monster. A powerful alien who may or may not ever be able to return to Earth at all and whose true loyalties are unclear. A couple of spies who can fight well but have no powers and questionable ethics. And a WWII hero who was only defrosted months before. The idea of trusting the security of the world to a ragtag band of weirdos and loose cannons like that sounds completely insane on paper. It was an enormous gamble on Fury's part, and it's perfectly understandable why the Council would've preferred to rely on more conventional defenses like armies and missiles.

And no, they did not launch that nuclear weapon with the goal of killing the Avengers. They did it with the goal of saving the rest of the planet by sacrificing one city. They didn't want to kill the people who were already there in New York, but they believed it was the only way to close the portal and save the world, and they were convinced that if they didn't do it, everyone in New York would've been doomed anyway, along with the rest of the human race. And they had every reason to hold that conviction. It may be dramatic and exciting to write a story where a desperately outmatched band of heroes pulls an insane hail-Mary play at the last second and saves everyone, but nobody who's actually responsible for the safety of the world would be willing to rely on such a strategy, not with seven billion people at stake.
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Old April 11 2014, 04:10 PM   #4462
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
...
bbjeg wrote: View Post
I assume you haven't seen the Marvel Studios: Assembling a Universe TV Special. They spoiled the hell out of CA:TWS.
I did see that special, and I don't agree. They "spoiled" the Winter Soldier's true identity -- something that the whole comics audience already knew -- but even after watching the special, I was still entirely surprised by the HYDRA reveal in the film, and by the revelations of who was working for HYDRA. If anything, they used the Winter Soldier-identity spoiler to distract us from the bigger spoilers, and it worked.
...
IIRC They revealed HYDRA indirectly when saying they worked on him half way through CA:TFA and then found him after he was the only Howling Commando lost.
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Old April 11 2014, 04:25 PM   #4463
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

There IS NO actual "Clairvoyant". I don't know if some of you were not paying attention. It was whoever is in control of Hydra/Shield who had access to high level records that attempted to make it look like it was someone with a gift.
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Old April 11 2014, 04:34 PM   #4464
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Photoman15 wrote: View Post
There IS NO actual "Clairvoyant". I don't know if some of you were not paying attention. It was whoever is in control of Hydra/Shield who had access to high level records that attempted to make it look like it was someone with a gift.
Well, yes, it was made clear last week that there was no actual clairvoyant power involved. We're talking about "the Clairvoyant" as the assumed title for a specific individual and discussing who that individual was, without assuming that the title was factually accurate. I mean, we can talk about Black Widow without implying belief that she is actually a spider of the genus Latrodectus.
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Old April 11 2014, 05:20 PM   #4465
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Photoman15 wrote: View Post
There IS NO actual "Clairvoyant". I don't know if some of you were not paying attention. It was whoever is in control of Hydra/Shield who had access to high level records that attempted to make it look like it was someone with a gift.
Yep, we all got that. Still, the label is "The Clairvoyant" when referring to that person.
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Old April 11 2014, 05:28 PM   #4466
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

I'm a bit amused how some people here are coming up with theories to excuse Ward's behaviour and find ways to make a return to the team possible (some kind of outside influence is the most favorite option).

If the writing/producing team has any courage they will have him stay the villain.. some people are really not who they seem to be and it would be a big cop out now if it turns out he was mind-controlled somehow or the team lets him back with a mere slap on the wrist.

He has killed loyal Shield agents.. there is no turning it either way to make this forgivable. The only way Ward has to get some respect and redemption is to die doing a last good thing like saving the team from certain death.

For me i can't think of a possible reason how they could take Ward back and accept him as one of their own and if that ever happens it either has to be one heck of a brilliant script or the show jumps the shark.
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Old April 11 2014, 06:35 PM   #4467
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

^He gets reduced to level 4?
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Old April 11 2014, 06:42 PM   #4468
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Level Minus-Six.
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Old April 11 2014, 06:47 PM   #4469
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Personally, I hope Ward stays the bad guy too.

Just speculating, I don't think Ward is innocent but from the sound of things, Natasha has done far worse in her day, yet she was forgiven and wasn't a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent at the time. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't care so long as the killing machine is on their side and their heart's in the right place.
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Old April 11 2014, 07:07 PM   #4470
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
I'm a bit amused how some people here are coming up with theories to excuse Ward's behaviour and find ways to make a return to the team possible (some kind of outside influence is the most favorite option).
Looking over the responses at various sites, I've noticed a progression similar to the "stages of grief" model. First denial -- "He can't really be a HYDRA agent, it's just an act, and he just pretended to kill Hand!" Then bargaining -- "Okay, he's working for Garrett, but maybe he's just an opportunist or he's been brainwashed or something." And now I'm seeing more acceptance -- "Okay, Ward's a traitor, now what does that mean for the future?" Not a lot of anger or depression, though, since I don't think that many people had a strong emotional investment in the character.


bbjeg wrote: View Post
Just speculating, I don't think Ward is innocent but from the sound of things, Natasha has done far worse in her day, yet she was forgiven and wasn't a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent at the time. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't care so long as the killing machine is on their side and their heart's in the right place.
But Natasha not being a SHIELD agent is the key difference. She didn't betray any oaths to them when she did those bad things, and she wasn't part of an enemy actively undermining them from the inside. Generally people see traitors within their own ranks as being even worse than outright enemies. So SHIELD might be a lot less forgiving of Ward than they were of Natasha.

Although, of course,
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