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Old March 15 2014, 01:59 PM   #3676
theenglish
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
I guess it's that Banner controls when he Hulks out but not so much what the Hulk does afterward, aside from being "aimed" in the right direction.

The "aim" thing reminds me of the Lou Ferrigno Hulk in the TV series. Banner didn't have any conscious control of the change and tried not to let it happen, but the Hulk always reflected Banner's emotions -- attacking the people/things that had threatened him as Banner and protecting the people Banner wanted to protect. And he retained Banner's unwillingness to kill.
But at the end of the Avengers we see a different Hulk than we have seen previously in any of the movies. Hulk is more like the comic versions where he retains a sense of intelligence and is more than just a mindless monster. He actually becomes part of the "team". Sure, Cap says "smash" but the Hulk obviously is able to reason during the battle. He saves Iron Man (great scene!) and he is with the team when they confront Loki at the end.

One could argue that Banner/Hulk has always been able to do this and we just haven't seen it, but I would say that this is the first time it has happened in this way. This is what gives Banner his character arc.

He has been living, frightened, away from society trying to manage his anger to prevent himself from turning into the Hulk--so he doesn't become a raging, mindless monster.

At the end of the Avengers, he has more confidence and embraces Hulk for the first time as part of who he is. To me, doing this, creates a different Hulk--one that thinks and interacts with his surroundings and is truly capable of knowing the difference between the good guys and the bad guys, and right and wrong.
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Old March 15 2014, 03:55 PM   #3677
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I like that the Hulk saved Iron Man.
Then tossed him aside casually
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Old March 15 2014, 04:17 PM   #3678
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Is the Hulk catching Iron Man the single best scene in any of the Marvel movies so far? The theater I was in utterly erupted when it happen, unlike any other scene in any other Marvel movie.
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Old March 15 2014, 04:23 PM   #3679
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
This debate only works if Skye is Asgardian, no? Certainly someone from Africa knows what a Zebra is, but they don't know what a Kangaroo is.
They don't? Then why the fuck do you know what either is? I'm sure you're not simultaneously from Africa and Australia, after all. (Jesus Christ...)
Sorry, I was just going with the metaphor. I didn't create it. If you want to take it literally, it really doesn't make sense. I'm not really sure who isn't supposed to know what a zebra is in this context. I agree with the rest of your post, though.

theenglish wrote: View Post
I think that any reference to the Hulk raging uncontrollably would undermine the character arc from the Avengers. The end of the Avengers established that Banner could now control the Hulk.
He failed to control the Hulk earlier in the same movie. Besides, in my idea, he does control the Hulk for the most part. It's just everyone else thinks he doesn't.
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Old March 15 2014, 06:25 PM   #3680
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

The point is he can attempt to control the Hulk when it's his idea, and then only to a certain degree (Hulk did still sucker punch Thor despite Banner not having any issues with him). The Hulk will still get out of control if Banner loses his shit, or the Hulk comes out despite his effort (such as when getting shot, induced into rage by magic, etc.).
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Old March 15 2014, 08:47 PM   #3681
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

You mean no issue besides getting smacked in the jaw my Mew-mew? It's totally clear that the sucker punch was just some good humoured payback for earlier. He even smirks. Obviously the Hulk and Banner are more in tune and thus more focused, in control and aware than when he's induced into a blind rage.

One thing that is still a bit of a mystery is how Banner changes back after he Hulks out by choice. Normally Hulk just seems to keep going until he's exhausted and/or he's gotten away from whomever is attacking him.

Have the comics ever covered this, or are there no specific rules aside from the laws of plot convenience?

Last edited by Reverend; March 15 2014 at 08:59 PM.
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Old March 15 2014, 08:57 PM   #3682
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).
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Old March 15 2014, 09:55 PM   #3683
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Can we please just call it Mjolnir and not bring up that...other name. Damnit Darcy.
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Old March 15 2014, 09:58 PM   #3684
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Why is May still alive after that beating Lorelei gave her? Lorelei gave that guy a single wack that knocked him into the car and over, yet pulled her punches with May? Yes, I know we can't kill the main characters off like that, especially with what we saw at the end with May, but still...
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Old March 15 2014, 10:19 PM   #3685
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).
It depends on how you're defining "the Hulk" as an individual. You seem to think that he's a totally separate entity that takes Banner's place. Personally, I'd always gotten the impression that he's a manifestation of Banner's "id" (for lack of a better term.) All instinct and rage, but it's still Banner under all that. He says he remembers what it's like being the Hulk, we see him relive the experiences in dreams and PTSD-like flashbacks.

My point is a raw manifestation of pure rage doesn't have a sense of humour, let alone higher reasoning or even cogent thought. He smirked, he quipped at Loki and he saved Stark. These aren't the actions of a mindless beast. In this state, it's Banner's personality that's in the driver's seat.
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Old March 15 2014, 10:33 PM   #3686
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Reverend wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).
It depends on how you're defining "the Hulk" as an individual. You seem to think that he's a totally separate entity that takes Banner's place. Personally, I'd always gotten the impression that he's a manifestation of Banner's "id" (for lack of a better term.) All instinct and rage, but it's still Banner under all that. He says he remembers what it's like being the Hulk, we see him relive the experiences in dreams and PTSD-like flashbacks.

My point is a raw manifestation of pure rage doesn't have a sense of humour, let alone higher reasoning or even cogent thought. He smirked, he quipped at Loki and he saved Stark. These aren't the actions of a mindless beast. In this state, it's Banner's personality that's in the driver's seat.
Reverend, I think that you are correct. That was the point at the end of the movie. In allegorical terms, it is a lot like the rages and emotions that scare us and we try to control. Like Captain Kirk in The Enemy Within, Banner learns to accept this side of him by the end of the movie. Hulk is not a completely different entity than Banner but more the "tough guy" version of him. At the end, we clearly see him adopting the team as his friends and playfully roughhousing with Thor.
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Old March 15 2014, 10:45 PM   #3687
Mr. Adventure
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Why is May still alive after that beating Lorelei gave her? Lorelei gave that guy a single wack that knocked him into the car and over, yet pulled her punches with May? Yes, I know we can't kill the main characters off like that, especially with what we saw at the end with May, but still...
There's a lot of that in comic books and in action movies and TV. Combine the two and it just has to be expected.
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Old March 15 2014, 11:28 PM   #3688
Reverend
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

theenglish wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).
It depends on how you're defining "the Hulk" as an individual. You seem to think that he's a totally separate entity that takes Banner's place. Personally, I'd always gotten the impression that he's a manifestation of Banner's "id" (for lack of a better term.) All instinct and rage, but it's still Banner under all that. He says he remembers what it's like being the Hulk, we see him relive the experiences in dreams and PTSD-like flashbacks.

My point is a raw manifestation of pure rage doesn't have a sense of humour, let alone higher reasoning or even cogent thought. He smirked, he quipped at Loki and he saved Stark. These aren't the actions of a mindless beast. In this state, it's Banner's personality that's in the driver's seat.
Reverend, I think that you are correct. That was the point at the end of the movie. In allegorical terms, it is a lot like the rages and emotions that scare us and we try to control. Like Captain Kirk in The Enemy Within, Banner learns to accept this side of him by the end of the movie. Hulk is not a completely different entity than Banner but more the "tough guy" version of him. At the end, we clearly see him adopting the team as his friends and playfully roughhousing with Thor.
If memory serves, Stan Lee has made no bones over the years about the fact that Hulk was very much inspired by 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde'. One of the core themes of that piece is that Mr. Hyde *is* Dr. Jekyll with all social morays and inhibitions removed. Just like with Banner, Hulk--"the other guy" as he puts it-- is not some other entity taking over his body, it's Banner with all higher reasoning disconnected and with the base instinctual emotional drives turned up to eleven.

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
Why is May still alive after that beating Lorelei gave her? Lorelei gave that guy a single wack that knocked him into the car and over, yet pulled her punches with May? Yes, I know we can't kill the main characters off like that, especially with what we saw at the end with May, but still...
There's a lot of that in comic books and in action movies and TV. Combine the two and it just has to be expected.
Yeah, it's a dramatic conceit. You could equally say that Sif didn't need to fight those bikers when nothing they could do would even slow her down. She could literally have just walked right through them without lifting a finger or breaking stride.
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Old March 15 2014, 11:39 PM   #3689
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

I prefer the Peter David explanation for the Green Hulk... 9 year old Banner watched his father murder his mother and felt guilty that he couldn't stop the crime unfolding.

I think the Grey Hulk was about girls at college laughing at his pitiful sexual technique.

Which would explain why a guy in his 30s was dating a 16 year old virgin in Hulk #1 1962.
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Old March 16 2014, 12:37 AM   #3690
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I prefer the Peter David explanation for the Green Hulk... 9 year old Banner watched his father murder his mother and felt guilty that he couldn't stop the crime unfolding.

I think the Grey Hulk was about girls at college laughing at his pitiful sexual technique.

Which would explain why a guy in his 30s was dating a 16 year old virgin in Hulk #1 1962.
In 1962 this was perfectly acceptable. The Dick Van Dyke show had a huge age gap between him and Mary Tyler Moore.
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