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Old September 29 2013, 10:19 PM   #331
Christopher
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Hm. Odd, then.

Okay, related question: I know that Alfred the butler in the '66 Batman series was never called Alfred Pennyworth because that name wasn't coined until 1969, a few months after the series went off the air. But Commissioner Gordon was never given a first name in the show either. So when was Commissioner Gordon given his first name of James in the comics?
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Old September 29 2013, 10:34 PM   #332
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

^^ I don't know much about the DC characters, but the Robert Bruce Banner retcon goes back to the 60s. I think it was first used in that epic 2-parter in the FF with the Hulk and the Avengers.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if Kirby came up with that. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kirby came up with that whole sequence and all Lee did was the dialog.
A lot of the time, Stan's plotting would involve saying to Kirby, "Put Hydra in the next issue. Go!" and Kirby would come back with a twenty-page epic.
Understatement. That process was officially known as The Marvel Method for like forty years.
Yeah, that was the system they used probably at least through the 80s, but I have a feeling that guys like Englehart and Gerber went into a bit more detail.
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Old September 29 2013, 10:34 PM   #333
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

My Batman is weak.

Although as far as "Bob" Banner was concerned, there was a full page apology the following month, followed by a "You thought we frakked up but we didn't" cover up.

In the late 80s, I heard that Hollywood sidelined "Bruce" because it sounded "too gay", which at the time wasn't offensive (Yes it was, well no one knew it was offensive, the gays did... Shut up!), when putting the Hulk project together.

Short answer: Homophobia.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:06 PM   #334
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
When did the "Robert Bruce Banner" retcon get established? Was it before or after the 1977 debut of the Bill Bixby TV series, which renamed him David Bruce Banner? I know they changed his name to David because somebody didn't like the name Bruce, but then, why not just call him Robert? Unless that hadn't yet been established in the comics as his real first name.
It happened in Fantastic Four #25, the reason for the change on the TV series was some kind of homophobia, they didn't want to call him Bruce.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:07 PM   #335
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
My Batman is weak.

Although as far as "Bob" Banner was concerned, there was a full page apology the following month, followed by a "You thought we frakked up but we didn't" cover up.

In the late 80s, I heard that Hollywood sidelined "Bruce" because it sounded "too gay", which at the time wasn't offensive (Yes it was, well no one knew it was offensive, the gays did... Shut up!), when putting the Hulk project together.

Short answer: Homophobia.
This is true but it happened much earlier and for the TV show.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:18 PM   #336
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Okay, related question: I know that Alfred the butler in the '66 Batman series was never called Alfred Pennyworth because that name wasn't coined until 1969, a few months after the series went off the air. But Commissioner Gordon was never given a first name in the show either. So when was Commissioner Gordon given his first name of James in the comics?
The earliest mention of it I've been able to find is in "The Private Life of Commissioner Gordon" from World's Finest #53, which came out in August 1951. He was referred to there as "Jim W. Gordon."
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Putting on my editor's hat for a minute, it's amazing how many otherwise sensible writers put characters named Lora, Linda, and Lenore in the same book. Or maybe Dave, Dan, and Donald.

Do not do this! I actually keep lists of the characters in my books just to make sure the names don't sound too much alike.
George RR Martin of A Song of Ice and Fire fame, has opted to ignore this rule of writing and frequently has characters with similar names. Game of Thrones has 3 Roberts, for example, (King Robert, Robb Stark and Robert Arryn, though the latter became Robyn for the TV show) and there is an Osha and an Asha at different stages, as well as various Brandons, Jeynes etc.
Not to mention all the Jons. Jon Snow, Jon Arryn, Jon Connington, two Jon Umbers (the Greatjon and the Smalljon)...
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Old September 29 2013, 11:35 PM   #337
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I think it was way before the TV show, possibly in the letter column of the comic book.

'Nuff said, True Believers!
^This, to the best of my knowledge. Pretty sure it was first established as a letter column rationalization after the initial mistake, then it wound up sticking in-story, though I couldn't say when exactly the full name was first used deliberately in-story.

If it had been after the TV series, then I imagine that they just would have established at that point that his actual first name was David. I do specifically recall one instance, in an early 80s story in which a then-intelligent Hulk was granted presidential amnesty for any past actions, that they showed Reagan signing a formal document that identified his as "David Bruce Banner"...and that immediately jumped out to me at the time as a total foul-up as far as comics continuity was concerned.
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Old September 30 2013, 12:29 AM   #338
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
In the late 80s, I heard that Hollywood sidelined "Bruce" because it sounded "too gay", which at the time wasn't offensive (Yes it was, well no one knew it was offensive, the gays did... Shut up!), when putting the Hulk project together.
That's a popular myth, but it isn't really true. (After all, Bruce Jenner had won Olympic gold the year before, so it's hard to believe people would've considered the name unmanly at the time.) According to Kenneth Johnson, he wanted to avoid using an alliterative name because it sounded too comic-booky, and he chose David instead because it was his son's name. And that explanation makes sense, because Johnson clearly tried to get as far from the comic as possible in every respect. His Hulk didn't talk, he wasn't being chased by the military, he didn't battle supervillains, there was no Rick Jones or Betty Ross, etc. Johnson didn't even want the Hulk to be green -- he preferred red, the color of rage -- but Stan Lee was adamant on that point. (I mean, whoever heard of a Red Hulk?) Basically Johnson hated anything to do with the comics and preferred to draw on Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and Les Miserables as his referents.


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The earliest mention of it I've been able to find is in "The Private Life of Commissioner Gordon" from World's Finest #53, which came out in August 1951. He was referred to there as "Jim W. Gordon."
Okay, thanks. I guess the show never used his first name because that's the kind of show it was. It rarely used the real names of any of its villains either -- Penguin was always just Penguin (even running for mayor under that name), Catwoman was just Catwoman, etc. (There were a few exceptions, though, e.g. Mad Hatter was Jervis Tetch and Mr. Freeze was Dr. Shivel.) Chief O'Hara never got a first name either, and he was an original creation. (He was apparently later named Clancy O'Hara in the comics, although Wikipedia calls him Miles O'Hara -- perhaps by confusion with Chief O'Brien?)
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Old September 30 2013, 01:54 AM   #339
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I think it was way before the TV show, possibly in the letter column of the comic book.

'Nuff said, True Believers!
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Old September 30 2013, 02:53 AM   #340
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
That's a popular myth, but it isn't really true. (After all, Bruce Jenner had won Olympic gold the year before, so it's hard to believe people would've considered the name unmanly at the time.)
Though with today's Bruce Jenner...

I've even heard Lou Ferrigno repeat that story.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:09 AM   #341
Greg Cox
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

I don't think the gay thing was just a myth. That was a long time ago, but "Bruce" really was, back in the sixties, practically a punchline when it came to gay jokes and comedy skits on shows like "Laugh-In,'"the Johnny Carson Show, and the like. There seems to be some confusion as to how this got started, but if a character said (with a lisp) that his name was Bruce, audiences would roar accordingly, getting the joke . . . or so I recall

Needless to say, this was a less enlightened time . . .
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Old September 30 2013, 04:35 AM   #342
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

But in addition to Bruce Jenner, Bruce Lee had died just four years earlier and was a major action icon by that point. And Bruce Dern was at the peak of his career around then, though he wasn't an action star. So whatever connotations the name may have had in the '60s, I think they were probably changing by 1977.

Also, the makers of Batman just a decade before, or the animated The New Adventures of Batman debuting in the same year as Hulk, hadn't felt the need to change Bruce Wayne's name.

So maybe there were some people involved in the production, or at the network, who expressed such sentiments about the name, but I have a hard time believing that would've been the exclusive reason for the change. Whereas Kenneth Johnson desiring to distance himself from the comic-book cliche of alliterative names is entirely in character.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:45 AM   #343
Nerys Myk
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

But in addition to Bruce Jenner, Bruce Lee had died just four years earlier and was a major action icon by that point. And Bruce Dern was at the peak of his career around then, though he wasn't an action star. So whatever connotations the name may have had in the '60s, I think they were probably changing by 1977.
Plus we had recently seen the future of Rock and Roll and it's name was Bruce Springsteen.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:59 AM   #344
Guy Gardener
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

There was some dialogue from the US version of Men Behaving Badly circa 1997.

(Rob Schneider opens the door in a velvet smoking robe to the precious Dina Waters. Rob is obviously crying because something very unsettling has happened.)

What's the matter Jamie?

I saw the new Batman movie and it's just awful.

Was it really that bad?

Well, yes, but no, it's that they've turned the Dynamic Duo into two elegant gay men. (sob)

But Jamie, Batman and Robin have always been sorta gay.

I know, I know, (sob) but it's always been subtext, (sob) it's always been subtext (sob).

...

Drew Carey in season 4 of his sitcom won the Batmobile in a scratcher competition, but by the end of the episode, he loses the car by breaking the Morals clause in the competition contract by being caught having sex in the Batmobile in a public park with his girlfriend Kate Walsh from Greys Anatomy.

After hearing this Diedritch Bader exclaims "Morals clause!? Didn't Batman keep a boy in a cave?"
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Old September 30 2013, 12:12 PM   #345
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Re: Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Could be a little of both...Johnson didn't like the alliteration, and the fact that he thought Bruce sounded gay determined which half of the name had to go.

Funnily enough regarding the alliteration, he cast an actor for the role who had the same initials as the comic book character....
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