RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 146,399
Posts: 5,769,014
Members: 25,943
Currently online: 514
Newest member: chadheroman37

TrekToday headlines

Trekonomics Book
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3

Shore Leave 37 Convention
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3

Two New ThinkGeek Trek-themed Items
By: T'Bonz on Jul 2

July-August 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Jul 2

Pegg: Star Trek Beyond Scary
By: T'Bonz on Jul 2

San Diego Comic-Con Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 1

Nimoy Memories From Friends and Family
By: T'Bonz on Jul 1

Stewart: It’s in My Genes
By: T'Bonz on Jun 30

Star Trek Beyond
By: T'Bonz on Jun 30

Trek-themed Car Accessories
By: T'Bonz on Jun 29


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 27 2013, 04:46 PM   #106
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
That's nice. Still Rogers went from recruit to an officer holding the rank of Captain without any of the intermediate steps.
That's because Private America just didn't have the same ring to it.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 04:51 PM   #107
grendelsbayne
Captain
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
That's nice. Still Rogers went from recruit to an officer holding the rank of Captain without any of the intermediate steps.
And that's entirely irrelevant to my point, because the problem with Kirk's promotion is not the jump in rank, it's the ridiculous jump in level of responsibility. Rank is nothing but a title, very easy to throw around as long as it doesn't come with actual responsibility.

Last edited by M'Sharak; September 27 2013 at 05:20 PM. Reason: fix tags to correct quote attribution
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 04:54 PM   #108
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: A boat on a river
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
That's nice. Still Rogers went from recruit to an officer holding the rank of Captain without any of the intermediate steps.
That's because Private America just didn't have the same ring to it.
True.

Though as I said earlier, in the comics Rogers remained a Private through the whole war. He did get back pay for the time he spent on ice. Would have been more he had a commission.
Nerys Myk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 04:58 PM   #109
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

And that's entirely irrelevant to my point, because the problem with Kirk's promotion is not the jump in rank, it's the ridiculous jump in level of responsibility. Rank is nothing but a title, very easy to throw around as long as it doesn't come with actual responsibility.
No one wanted to watch Lieutenant Kirk do maintenance checks of the plasma vents. They wanted Captain Kirk in command of the Enterprise.

There are simply no other considerations here.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 05:02 PM   #110
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: A boat on a river
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
That's nice. Still Rogers went from recruit to an officer holding the rank of Captain without any of the intermediate steps.
And that's entirely irrelevant to my point, because the problem with Kirk's promotion is not the jump in rank, it's the ridiculous jump in level of responsibility. Rank is nothing but a title, very easy to throw around as long as it doesn't come with actual responsibility.
And my point is Rogers had a similar jump in rank and responsibility. He goes from recruit to propaganda tool to leader of an elite team of commandos. We've no real idea how big that team expanded to. It might have been more than just the initial group by the time Rogers was iced. A Captain in the Army is usually in charge of Company, which could include a couple of hundred men. Also the missions the team was sent on were vital and important to the War effort. So that's an increase in responsibility as well. Much more than punching "Hitler" and dancing with show girls.

Last edited by M'Sharak; September 27 2013 at 05:20 PM. Reason: quote attribution
Nerys Myk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 07:13 PM   #111
grendelsbayne
Captain
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post

No one wanted to watch Lieutenant Kirk do maintenance checks of the plasma vents. They wanted Captain Kirk in command of the Enterprise.

There are simply no other considerations here.
There's no reason they couldn't have had that without the idiotic ending of Kirk being instantly placed in full official command of the enterprise. The wonderful thing about a battlefield promotion is: it's temporary (just like Riker in BoBW). And killing Pike to provide Kirk full ascendancy to the Captain's Chair (after actually having something resembling Starship experience) would've still provided the perfect opening to the second film.

And, if that wasn't good enough for the writers, then they should have just sucked it up and started Kirk with a higher rank than 'Cadet on Academic Suspension', no matter how desperate they were to show his Kobayashi Maru test.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 07:21 PM   #112
grendelsbayne
Captain
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
And my point is Rogers had a similar jump in rank and responsibility. He goes from recruit to propaganda tool to leader of an elite team of commandos. We've no real idea how big that team expanded to. It might have been more than just the initial group by the time Rogers was iced. A Captain in the Army is usually in charge of Company, which could include a couple of hundred men. Also the missions the team was sent on were vital and important to the War effort. So that's an increase in responsibility as well. Much more than punching "Hitler" and dancing with show girls.
All of which came gradually, not 'overnight'. ST09 takes place across a time span of a day or two, Captain America takes at least a year, probably more. And even if he got a full company to take on his important missions - it's still not close the same level of responsibility as being the captain of the starfleet flagship, a position requiring a massive amount of *independent* leadership beyond simply the ability to improvise during planned missions, not to mention the endless technical considerations necessary for commanding a ship in such a hostile natural environment.

Not to mention the fact that Rogers was handpicked for the responsibility and passed his training with flying colors, while Kirk hadn't even graduated from the academy yet and already had a disciplinary record. These are not even remotely comparable situations.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 07:27 PM   #113
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Yes, he was fresh out of the Academy, but, he had the rank of Lieutenant already, so it's not like he went from Ensign to Captain and they did address the greenness of Kirk in the second movie, when they took the rank away and made him earn it
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 07:32 PM   #114
Cinema Geekly
Lieutenant Commander
 
Cinema Geekly's Avatar
 
View Cinema Geekly's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
I don't know. TOS Kirk and movie Kirk did things that should have got him drummed out of the service multiple times but because he saves the Earth over and over again he gets a slap on the wrist at worst.

Star Trek III is a prime example of this. Even though Kirk was doing what we all knew was best he basically spat in the face of the Federation over the course of two movies. At the end of the day he saved Earth so they just bust him down a rank back to Captain (which is where he wanted to be in the first place).
Absolutely, but that's a completely different situation. You're talking about a captain who, at that point, has very successfully commanded the SF flagship for years, and who is already a living legend. And you're talking about leniency in punishment, not extreme generosity in rewards. It's always easy to make excuses for people who've saved your life, but that doesn't mean you automatically assume that their 1 great success is proof positive that you can trust them completely with the most important thing in your possession.

In ST09, Kirk is a not necessarily well liked cadet (it seems like Pike is the only person who sees anything in him at all) who, through breaking a lot of rules, happens to save Earth. Worth a commendation? Certainly. Worth a promotion? No doubt about it whatsoever. Worth instantly putting him in complete control of the most important starship in the fleet when he hasn't even graduated the academy yet? No. Who in their right mind would ever even think of doing that?
Yeah but you arguing how realistic this situation is. Forget that TOS Kirk got in to so much trouble before he was a legend. You take any living real life hero the equivalent of Kirk in STIII there is no way he or his crew gets a slap on wrist for:

Violating direct orders, STEALING A SHIP, sabotaging another, breaking someone out of Federation custody, assaulted Federation officers, held a Federation officer at gun point, and went to a forbidden part of the galaxy.

Obviously all for good reason, but people leak files today and they do prison time.

Only in Trek or in a super hero film can the protagonist do these things and get away with it.

Do you think the Avengers are going to be in prison or debt because they destroyed most of New York? Of course not they stopped a threat to the planet and were rewarded. That is just movie logic.
Cinema Geekly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 07:51 PM   #115
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

No one wanted to watch Lieutenant Kirk do maintenance checks of the plasma vents. They wanted Captain Kirk in command of the Enterprise.

There are simply no other considerations here.
There's no reason they couldn't have had that without the idiotic ending of Kirk being instantly placed in full official command of the enterprise. The wonderful thing about a battlefield promotion is: it's temporary (just like Riker in BoBW). And killing Pike to provide Kirk full ascendancy to the Captain's Chair (after actually having something resembling Starship experience) would've still provided the perfect opening to the second film.

And, if that wasn't good enough for the writers, then they should have just sucked it up and started Kirk with a higher rank than 'Cadet on Academic Suspension', no matter how desperate they were to show his Kobayashi Maru test.
I thought they did a fairly decent job.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 07:58 PM   #116
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
I don't know. TOS Kirk and movie Kirk did things that should have got him drummed out of the service multiple times but because he saves the Earth over and over again he gets a slap on the wrist at worst.

Star Trek III is a prime example of this. Even though Kirk was doing what we all knew was best he basically spat in the face of the Federation over the course of two movies. At the end of the day he saved Earth so they just bust him down a rank back to Captain (which is where he wanted to be in the first place).
Absolutely, but that's a completely different situation. You're talking about a captain who, at that point, has very successfully commanded the SF flagship for years, and who is already a living legend. And you're talking about leniency in punishment, not extreme generosity in rewards. It's always easy to make excuses for people who've saved your life, but that doesn't mean you automatically assume that their 1 great success is proof positive that you can trust them completely with the most important thing in your possession.

In ST09, Kirk is a not necessarily well liked cadet (it seems like Pike is the only person who sees anything in him at all) who, through breaking a lot of rules, happens to save Earth. Worth a commendation? Certainly. Worth a promotion? No doubt about it whatsoever. Worth instantly putting him in complete control of the most important starship in the fleet when he hasn't even graduated the academy yet? No. Who in their right mind would ever even think of doing that?
Yeah but you arguing how realistic this situation is. Forget that TOS Kirk got in to so much trouble before he was a legend. You take any living real life hero the equivalent of Kirk in STIII there is no way he or his crew gets a slap on wrist for:

Violating direct orders, STEALING A SHIP, sabotaging another, breaking someone out of Federation custody, assaulted Federation officers, held a Federation officer at gun point, and went to a forbidden part of the galaxy.

Obviously all for good reason, but people leak files today and they do prison time.

Only in Trek or in a super hero film can the protagonist do these things and get away with it.

Do you think the Avengers are going to be in prison or debt because they destroyed most of New York? Of course not they stopped a threat to the planet and were rewarded. That is just movie logic.
Excellent point. "Movie logic", in the vast majority of all stories presented on film in the past 100+ years, supersedes "real life logic"--as it should. Especially in movies already set in fantastical worlds. It's not really a hard concept to grasp.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 08:00 PM   #117
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: RIP Leonard Nimoy
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

No one wanted to watch Lieutenant Kirk do maintenance checks of the plasma vents. They wanted Captain Kirk in command of the Enterprise.

There are simply no other considerations here.
There's no reason they couldn't have had that without the idiotic ending of Kirk being instantly placed in full official command of the enterprise. The wonderful thing about a battlefield promotion is: it's temporary (just like Riker in BoBW). And killing Pike to provide Kirk full ascendancy to the Captain's Chair (after actually having something resembling Starship experience) would've still provided the perfect opening to the second film.

And, if that wasn't good enough for the writers, then they should have just sucked it up and started Kirk with a higher rank than 'Cadet on Academic Suspension', no matter how desperate they were to show his Kobayashi Maru test.
I thought they did a fairly decent job.
They did.

I love how people think film writers have the final say on what makes it into a movie, much less the story.

We'll just ignore the studio wanting "X", the budget dictating what you can and can't do, the SFX house's limitations, the director wanting "X", actors having their input, and various producers all wanting "X".

No, no, the writer has all the power.

Very simple: Orci was right. You think you can do better? Do better. But do so within the same confines of requirements and restrictions that he and his writing partners had to work under. And make it a mass-market appealing film worth pumping several million dollars into making.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 08:19 PM   #118
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I don't know...

Now that I think of it, maybe a movie about a Lt. Kirk earning his stripes, inspecting warp conduits, scrubbing sonic showers, doing desk work at a starbase outpost, pulling third-shift watch in auxiliary control - THAT might have been JUST the kinds of 'realism' the Abrams movies needed. Forget all this fun space adventure and character story crap. Give me the REAL military experience, JJ!

Then maybe... MAYBE by the 8th or 9th Abrams Trek movie, Kirk could have a chance. Perhaps he could captain a laundry ship.

ACTION!
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 08:20 PM   #119
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
I don't know...

Now that I think of it, maybe a movie about a Lt. Kirk earning his stripes, inspecting warp conduits, scrubbing sonic showers, doing desk work at a starbase outpost, pulling third-shift watch in auxiliary control - THAT might have been JUST the kinds of 'realism' the Abrams movies needed. Forget all this fun space adventure and character story crap. Give me the REAL military experience, JJ!

Then maybe... MAYBE by the 8th or 9th Abrams Trek movie, Kirk could have a chance. Perhaps he could captain a laundry ship.

ACTION!
Don't forget about him snitching on Ben Finney! Gotta have some character growth.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2013, 08:31 PM   #120
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

They could make a whole movie about Kirk being hazed by Finnegan. Act III could be about Kirk finding a bowl of cold soup in his bed.

My gosh! It practically writes itself...
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:59 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.