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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 6 2013, 12:42 AM   #391
Set Harth
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The torpedoes were armed, that's how they were able to make them go off inside the Vengeance. They always had that capability.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:43 AM   #392
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't think the torpedoes were armed, but I also don't think they were untraceable. Once the Enterprise launched the torpedoes, the Klingons would've spotted them and shot them down then went after the Enterprise. Which Marcus would claim had gone rogue.

Plus, I think Marcus knew exactly where Khan went. Why else would he have allowed Enterprise crewmembers around the wreckage?

Once Pike was dead, he was counting on Kirk going off half-cocked after Khan with revenge on his mind.
That's why I think the attack on Daystrom was part of the plan. 1) Gives Marcus more ammo, 2) Eliminates any stumbling blocks, like Pike.

I see Marcus and Khan's relationship more a chess game. Khan was never 100% out of Marcu's control, he was being played; likewise, Marcus didn't have Khan 100% on a leash and had to improvise or adjust when Khan veered away from what Marcus predicts.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:45 AM   #393
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Set Harth wrote: View Post
The torpedoes were armed, that's how they were able to make them go off inside the Vengeance. They always had that capability.
We really don't know that for sure. They could have easily put explosives where the cryo-tubes were. Even if they still had weapons payload, my scenario still works out.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:48 AM   #394
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
That's why I think the attack on Daystrom was part of the plan.
Not sure I would exactly call if part of the plan, but something that Marcus knew could be coming.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:48 AM   #395
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote:
Once Marcus discovered that Khan's people were missing, you'd think he'd be able to figure out what had happened to them.
Your timeline is off. According to Khan's story his plan was discovered before Kirk was sent on the mission.

BillJ wrote:
They could have easily put explosives where the cryo-tubes were.
I really don't think that's what they meant by "armed the torpedoes".

From the novelization:
ADF wrote:
As Kirk continued running, his eyes widened slightly. "The torpedoes. He armed the damn torpedoes."
Beside him, Scott was disbelieving. "He couldna gotten away with such, Captain. Surely Khan would have checked them as soon as he got them on board the other ship?"
"As anxious as he was to get his crew back..." Kirk muttered. "No, you're right, Scotty. But he'd have to scan them one at a time. Besides, who would be fool enough to try to arm one manually, right? A photon torpedo is always armed by the sending of an electronic code. Once on the warship, they and their potentially dangerous warheads would be immune to interference from outside, safe behind the warship's shields. And if only one was manually armed..."
The chief engineer was nodding to himself. "Aye... then Khan would have to scan that one specifically to even suspect anything was amiss."
Earlier in the novelization ( this is Carol speaking ):
ADF wrote:
"Unfortunately for us, the warheads on these weapons are live."
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Last edited by Set Harth; October 6 2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:52 AM   #396
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

If Khan said it, then it must be true.
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Old October 6 2013, 01:04 AM   #397
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Of course Khan wasn't certain what Marcus had given Kirk. Khan wasn't there when the Enterprise was armed.

All Khan could do was light the fuse and hope that Marcus would unwittingly play along as Khan hoped. But when Khan heard how many torpedoes Kirk had, he knew what he hoped would happen had in fact occurred: he had managed to get his people smuggled out of Section 31.
My understanding is that Khan was going to use the torpedoes to smuggle his crew away from Marcus and co. A strange plan but "OK". I also understand that he had to leave town because Marcus found out about this. He believed Marcus would kill them out of hand, though I think Marcus would have had other uses for them than mere destruction. Although there would have been far better ways to do that. Ways that didn't involve the possibility of them being discovered by Kirk and co for example. No, the only "reason" they are used is so Khan will go along with Kirk peacefully and the plot can move on.

Khan can have no expectation that Marcus would send any of them after him, even if Marcus didn't know what was in them. And how did no-one find them during routine checks before sending them out etc? Why would he use all of them? Why the embargo on Scotty examining them if Marcus didn't know what was in them? It's such crazy wishful thinking it doesn't qualify as a plan (or part of a plot for that matter).


SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Pike said he gave Kirk the Enterprise and Marcus said Pike defended Kirk. So yeah, Pike was the guy that got Kirk the command.
Well that's unfortunate (as well as being unlikely for such an organisation in my view).
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Old October 6 2013, 01:20 AM   #398
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
If Khan said it, then it must be true.
Yeah, exposition has to rely on character dialogue sometimes, isn't it a bitch? If Marcus didn't know Khan's people were in the torpedoes when Kirk was sent out, what is the point of Khan lying about it? What difference does it make? Wouldn't it serve his purposes just as well to tell the truth there? I don't think it's a good idea to rewrite the character into someone who lies for no tangible purpose.
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Old October 6 2013, 01:31 AM   #399
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

IIRC, when Khan was in the brig, he was telling Kirk and company things we knew to be lies. But I'll be happy to come back to this, once the script is online, or there's a good transcript, or I get the movie.
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Old October 6 2013, 03:05 AM   #400
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Did GRs fantasy of himself as a boy destroy Star Trek as we knew it? Nope we sucked it up and moved on.
But for at least four years an awful lot of "Throw Wesley out the airlock" buttons were sold at conventions.

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place?
Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.
My own theory/expectation, while watching the film that first time, was that an original plan by Section 31 was for Khan and his 72 followers, in torpedo tubes, to be softlanded on Q'onos and take over the whole planet, much like Kor and his men took over Organia in the original timeline.

But unleashing 73 Eugenics supersoldiers might have been worse than waiting for Klingons to activate their attack on Earth, and Marcus came up with alternate plans.
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Old October 6 2013, 02:34 PM   #401
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
IIRC, when Khan was in the brig, he was telling Kirk and company things we knew to be lies.
You don't RC. For one thing, as viewers we wouldn't have much more information than Kirk at that point, so if we knew the things Khan was telling Kirk were lies at the time we first saw the scene, Kirk probably should also have known this. But Kirk's behavior doesn't indicate any such knowledge, and it wouldn't make much sense for Khan to be telling Kirk things that were obviously lies. But do you mean that we found them to be lies later on in the film? Because that didn't happen either. But even if we were to rewrite Khan's dialogue and pepper it with things we "know" to be lies, it still wouldn't really matter. It still doesn't become reasonable to assume that Khan is someone who lies for no discernible purpose. And lying about the sequence of events serves no purpose if his objectives are equally served by not lying about the sequence of events.
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Old October 6 2013, 02:54 PM   #402
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Set Harth wrote: View Post
The torpedoes were armed, that's how they were able to make them go off inside the Vengeance. They always had that capability.
In other words, yes, Khan the brilliant mastermind put his supposedly valued crew inside actual explosive devices. A strange plan indeed for a brilliant mastermind...
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Old October 6 2013, 03:39 PM   #403
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The entire thing with the torpedoes is a bit convoluted, but within the logic of the movie, he's what I (at least) thought was happening:
-- Khan was in charge of developing the torpedoes.
-- Khan somehow had access to his people and believed he could smuggle them out inside the torpedoes.
-- At the right time, he would board the Vengeance when the torpedoes were delivered (the ship I'd imagine they were first designed for) and secretly thaw his people. They would take over the Vengeance and be on their merry way.
-- Marcus found out about the people in the torpedoes. Khan fled, and the events that we see in the movie unfold.
-- Marcus decides the best way to carry out his plan with things as they are now is to get rid of Khan and his people by giving the torpedoes to the Enterprise and send them on the mission to Kronos that he hopes will start a war.
-- Even without armed warheads, the torpedoes are almost certainly fueled (maybe by Section 31 before giving them to the Enterprise) and maybe warheads were even added.
-- In any case, even if they were all fired as duds or just the detonators exploded, it would still be an attack on the Klingon home world, and all hell would break loose.

The thing that's rather silly about the plan, though, is the need to fire all 72 torpedoes. Even if Kirk intended to use them, he could've decided using them all was too risky for starting a war, so he could've located Khan and fired only one or two at his position, which should've been enough.

Anyway, that's my best attempt at all this.
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Old October 6 2013, 04:51 PM   #404
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
It's impossible for Marcus' plan not to have been set in motion before Nero showed up. How could he possibly have built Vengeance, in secret, in less than a year? And he clearly tells us he wanted Kirk in that seat, he helped Pike advocate for Kirk Captaining the Enterprise.
He may have been working towards something, but who says the Vengeance was built specifically with this plan in mind?
It's been hypothesized, at least, that a ship or ship class of the same basic configuration had already been in the works by the time of the events shown in Star Trek 2009, which was then repurposed or had a side project split off by Marcus/Section 31 to become the Vengeance.


grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post

There is absolutely nothing to support this idea in either movie, while the second movie, short of having a character make a declarative, affirmative statement to confirm it, pretty much hinges on the overwhelming likelihood of Marcus having done just that--recovered the Botany Bay before the end of ST09.
Khan's description of his awakening outright said that Section 31 began aggresively searching space 'as a result of the destruction of Vulcan', leading to the discovery of the Botany bay.
Bear in mind, though, that several months must have passed between the destruction of Vulcan/defeat of Nero and the events at the conclusion of the 2009 film, in order to allow for partial recovery of Pike and major repairs to the Enterprise. It's not inconceivable that Marcus' Sec-31 operatives would have been able to locate Botany Bay and Khan during that interval.
Exactly. Unless someone thinks that because we didn't see the time elapsed between those events (destruction of Vulcan and handover of the repaired Enterprise) happened in the space of hours. This also provides a (probably intentionally vague) time buffer between the main portion of the story and Kirk's actual promotion. The way many complaints are presented, it's as if Kirk was handed the ship permanently within a day of having boarded. (I'm not suggesting it wasn't awkwardly handled on screen--a tiny blurb with "xx time elapsed" would have made a significant dent into the complaints, but it was not instantaneous just because we don't see the time in-between.)

In any event, the material on screen in each film does not contradict the idea that Marcus set his plan in motion--including finding Khan--before the events at the end of the first film.
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Old October 6 2013, 05:43 PM   #405
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Once Marcus discovered that Khan's people were missing, you'd think he'd be able to figure out what had happened to them. The issue is whether Marcus intentionally gave Kirk possession of Khan's people. If Marcus had just wanted the superhumans dead, he could have just killed them, you know. Zap, they're dead.
Unless he thought it was poetic justice. Or, if those torpedoes seemed the only way to guarantee Kirk would actually kill Khan and start a war at the same time and Marcus wasn't confident in his people's ability to remove the augments without damaging the torpedoes.

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
If Khan said it, then it must be true.
Khan and Marcus are the only sources we have for any of this. And their stories actually even agree for the most part. Unfortunately, their stories don't make all that much sense in light of the choices they made - which is why I find it particularly difficult to figure out exactly what is going on here.

Ovation wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Bear in mind, though, that several months must have passed between the destruction of Vulcan/defeat of Nero and the events at the conclusion of the 2009 film, in order to allow for partial recovery of Pike and major repairs to the Enterprise. It's not inconceivable that Marcus' Sec-31 operatives would have been able to locate Botany Bay and Khan during that interval.
Exactly. Unless someone thinks that because we didn't see the time elapsed between those events (destruction of Vulcan and handover of the repaired Enterprise) happened in the space of hours. This also provides a (probably intentionally vague) time buffer between the main portion of the story and Kirk's actual promotion. The way many complaints are presented, it's as if Kirk was handed the ship permanently within a day of having boarded. (I'm not suggesting it wasn't awkwardly handled on screen--a tiny blurb with "xx time elapsed" would have made a significant dent into the complaints, but it was not instantaneous just because we don't see the time in-between.)
No, it wasn't instantaneous. But how do we know anything at all about exactly how long it was? Pike was being treated with the best of 23rd century medicine, and the Enterprise could've been absolute top priority at the spacedock. In fact, it probably would've been considering all the other ships were completely beyond repair.

In any event, the material on screen in each film does not contradict the idea that Marcus set his plan in motion--including finding Khan--before the events at the end of the first film.
Even if it did take a few months before the end of 09 happened, that's not a lot of time for Section 31 to get its hands on a search fleet, actually start aggresively searching, find the Botany Bay floating in the middle of empty space, figure out who they're looking at, bring the ship safely into custody and inform Marcus for him to make the decision to use khan, and formulate a plan before the decision to promote Kirk was made.

Especially since, let's also not forget, the ceremony at the end of the film is not the moment when the admiralty decided to make him captain. That happened offscreen in the missing time, potentially some time before the ceremony itself.
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