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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 1 2013, 10:24 PM   #316
grendelsbayne
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Actually my point is Star Trek and Starfleet are very inconsistent in this matter. Characters advance or stagnate as the plot needs them. Picard and Kirk become Captains in their early thirties and remain Captains (or get busted down) because the plot needs them to be Captains. Wes becomes an Ensign then loses that commission so he can leave the show under the excuse he's going to the Academy. If Frakes wanted to leave they very well might have given Riker his own command to send the character off. The only rule is what the show or film needs the character to be. ST09 is no different in this. Kirk becomes Captain because the expectation is he will be the Captain of the Enterprise. Its the same set of rules Star Trek has always used.
But nothing you're describing is that inconsistent. It's a fairly clear image of promotions happening quite slowly on average, and occasionally being taken away for various reasons, in which even the so called exceptional people don't make captain until they're in their thirties. So, not the same set of rules that's always been used.
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Old October 1 2013, 10:41 PM   #317
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Actually my point is Star Trek and Starfleet are very inconsistent in this matter. Characters advance or stagnate as the plot needs them. Picard and Kirk become Captains in their early thirties and remain Captains (or get busted down) because the plot needs them to be Captains. Wes becomes an Ensign then loses that commission so he can leave the show under the excuse he's going to the Academy. If Frakes wanted to leave they very well might have given Riker his own command to send the character off. The only rule is what the show or film needs the character to be. ST09 is no different in this. Kirk becomes Captain because the expectation is he will be the Captain of the Enterprise. Its the same set of rules Star Trek has always used.
But nothing you're describing is that inconsistent. It's a fairly clear image of promotions happening quite slowly on average, and occasionally being taken away for various reasons, in which even the so called exceptional people don't make captain until they're in their thirties. So, not the same set of rules that's always been used.
The rule is "needs of the plot" plain and simple.

Your mistake is trying to postulate "Starfleet policy" based on the limited information provided by what we see in the show. But thats just a hand full of ships and personnel. Plus its a series TV show/movies. There is no "Starfleet" or a plan in place by the show runners about promotions.
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Last edited by Nerys Myk; October 1 2013 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Had to leave and pick up my wife ;)
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Old October 2 2013, 12:01 AM   #318
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
And on scale, Nero was the bigger threat of the two films. the Whalesong probe would have done it's thing and moved on; Nero was hell bent on trashing the Federation.
To me it doesn't matter how big the relative threat is. The only question is: Is Kirk properly trained for the job? As I have said, Starfleet should not be in the business of handing out starships as prizes.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Actually my point is Star Trek and Starfleet are very inconsistent in this matter. Characters advance or stagnate as the plot needs them. Picard and Kirk become Captains in their early thirties and remain Captains (or get busted down) because the plot needs them to be Captains. Wes becomes an Ensign then loses that commission so he can leave the show under the excuse he's going to the Academy. If Frakes wanted to leave they very well might have given Riker his own command to send the character off. The only rule is what the show or film needs the character to be. ST09 is no different in this. Kirk becomes Captain because the expectation is he will be the Captain of the Enterprise. Its the same set of rules Star Trek has always used.
In some respects yes and while it is unrealistic in a low grade fashion from a "believability" (if we actually bother to think about it) point of view, it is not irresponsible from an "is this person qualified for the job" or "does it make any sense to put this person in that position" (what the ...!)point of view. Others may have different objections of course.

Last edited by UFO; October 2 2013 at 04:57 AM.
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Old October 2 2013, 12:18 AM   #319
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
And on scale, Nero was the bigger threat of the two films. the Whalesong probe would have done it's thing and moved on; Nero was hell bent on trashing the Federation.
To me it doesn't matter how big the relative threat is. The only question is: Is Kirk properly trained for the job? As I have said, Starfleet should not be in the business of handing out starships as prizes.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Actually my point is Star Trek and Starfleet are very inconsistent in this matter. Characters advance or stagnate as the plot needs them. Picard and Kirk become Captains in their early thirties and remain Captains (or get busted down) because the plot needs them to be Captains. Wes becomes an Ensign then loses that commission so he can leave the show under the excuse he's going to the Academy. If Frakes wanted to leave they very well might have given Riker his own command to send the character off. The only rule is what the show or film needs the character to be. ST09 is no different in this. Kirk becomes Captain because the expectation is he will be the Captain of the Enterprise. Its the same set of rules Star Trek has always used.
In some respects yes and while it is unrealistic in a low grade fashion from a "believability" (if we actually bother to think about it) point of view, it is not irresponsible from an "is this person qualified for the job" or "does it make any sense to put this person in that position" (what the ...!)point of view. Others may have different objections of course.
That first quote isn't from me.

For decades I've been trying to figure out how Geordi, a Lieutenant jg con officer became Chief Engineer of the fleet's flagship. I've a similar problem with Worf's rise to Chief of Security. Though I can almost by that, given his proclivities.
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Old October 2 2013, 12:25 AM   #320
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
For decades I've been trying to figure out how Geordi, a Lieutenant jg con officer became Chief Engineer of the fleet's flagship.
When TNG was conceived they didn't include a Chief Engineer as a regular character because - I guess - the computer was presumed to run the ship most of the time.

I've a similar problem with Worf's rise to Chief of Security.
His rivals all died mysteriously.
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Old October 2 2013, 12:34 AM   #321
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
For decades I've been trying to figure out how Geordi, a Lieutenant jg con officer became Chief Engineer of the fleet's flagship.
When TNG was conceived they didn't include a Chief Engineer as a regular character because - I guess - the computer was presumed to run the ship most of the time.
Yeah, I know that. But in-universe it seems odd. Though they did retcon an Engineering background into Geordi's "biography". Still, why did Starfleet waste this supposed brilliant Engineer as a pilot?
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Old October 2 2013, 02:06 AM   #322
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
For decades I've been trying to figure out how Geordi, a Lieutenant jg con officer became Chief Engineer of the fleet's flagship.
When TNG was conceived they didn't include a Chief Engineer as a regular character because - I guess - the computer was presumed to run the ship most of the time.
Yeah, I know that. But in-universe it seems odd. Though they did retcon an Engineering background into Geordi's "biography". Still, why did Starfleet waste this supposed brilliant Engineer as a pilot?
And what about all the chief engineers we see in season one? And those who would have likely been trained in the actual engineering of Galaxy-class starships?

Realism.
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Old October 2 2013, 02:11 AM   #323
Therin of Andor
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Still, why did Starfleet waste this supposed brilliant Engineer as a pilot?
The crew are expected to diversify. Rand, Chekov, Kyle, Chapel, O'Brien (and Keiko) and Paris have also had varied careers/duties.
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Old October 2 2013, 02:16 AM   #324
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Still, why did Starfleet waste this supposed brilliant Engineer as a pilot?
The crew are expected to diversify. Rand, Chekov, Kyle, Chapel, O'Brien (and Keiko) and Paris have also had varied careers/duties.
But to go from a junior grade pilot to Chief Engineer of a top of the line starship is just as unrealistic as Kirk's jump. There were likely thousands of Starfleet engineers that were more qualified for the post than LaForge.

But, he's one of the main cast. So we accept it, at least I did, as a function of storytelling.
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Old October 2 2013, 02:28 AM   #325
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Still, why did Starfleet waste this supposed brilliant Engineer as a pilot?
The crew are expected to diversify. Rand, Chekov, Kyle, Chapel, O'Brien (and Keiko) and Paris have also had varied careers/duties.
But not in their second seasons. None them went from junior officer to department head overnight.
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Old October 2 2013, 05:00 AM   #326
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
That first quote isn't from me.
Sorry, It was SeerSGB. Have now corrected it.SeerSGBSeerSGB
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Old October 2 2013, 05:51 AM   #327
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
But not in their second seasons. None them went from junior officer to department head overnight.
We don't know how many months (in ship time) passed between the final episode of Season One and the first episode of the truncated Season Two. A lot happened, including Guinan coming on board, Crusher leaving, Pulaski's appointment.

Does being a department head mean you have to be a very high ranking officer, or just higher in rank than the other people in your area?

The original intention, while making "Encounter at Farpoint", was that the ship would be away from Earth for about ten years. Who knows, maybe Geordi had even taken a "grade reduction" for his time on the bridge, waiting till the Season One engineers to take up their next posts?
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Old October 2 2013, 06:08 AM   #328
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
But not in their second seasons. None them went from junior officer to department head overnight.
We don't know how many months (in ship time) passed between the final episode of Season One and the first episode of the truncated Season Two. A lot happened, including Guinan coming on board, Crusher leaving, Pulaski's appointment.

Does being a department head mean you have to be a very high ranking officer, or just higher in rank than the other people in your area?

The original intention, while making "Encounter at Farpoint", was that the ship would be away from Earth for about ten years. Who knows, maybe Geordi had even taken a "grade reduction" for his time on the bridge, waiting till the Season One engineers to take up their next posts?
I would think that a department as big and as important as Engineering would need someone with the rank and experience of veteran officer. And there seemed to be no shortage of those in Season One.

Crusher leaving and Guinan and Pulaski joining could have all happened at one layover at a Starbase. IIRC, several crewmembers joined at the same time in "Encounter At Farpoint". If the ship was on a ten year mission it seems unlikely that the senior engineering staff would be bailing after one year.
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Old October 2 2013, 06:11 AM   #329
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
If the ship was on a ten year mission it seems unlikely that the senior engineering staff would be bailing after one year.
That's my point. The original plans - to go beyond Farpoint and not return for ten years - did not happen.
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Old October 2 2013, 02:32 PM   #330
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
If the ship was on a ten year mission it seems unlikely that the senior engineering staff would be bailing after one year.
That's my point. The original plans - to go beyond Farpoint and not return for ten years - did not happen.
That's more the fault of "Star Trek Command" than Starfleet Command. Even if their mission parameters had been changed they wouldn't dump their senior engineering staff in favor of a junior officer who's only experience is flying the ship.
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