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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 1 2013, 04:02 AM   #301
BillJ
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
Because it's "realistic"!
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Old October 1 2013, 06:02 AM   #302
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
Well, you see, Starfleet has this great "buy-back" program that would have allowed Wes to count that year as Ensign, and perhaps also those other two years as "Acting Ensign", toward his retirement.

Had NEM been successful at the box office, Berman's next TNG movie outing would have had a detailed description of this program, including many graphs and schedules, and an energy being threatening to destroy earth.
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Old October 1 2013, 06:10 AM   #303
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
Well, you see, Starfleet has this great "buy-back" program that would have allowed Wes to count that year as Ensign, and perhaps also those other two years as "Acting Ensign", toward his retirement.

Had NEM been successful at the box office, Berman's next TNG movie outing would have had a detailed description of this program, including many graphs and schedules, and an energy being threatening to destroy earth.
Riveting! Why can't JJ make a movie like that?
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Old October 1 2013, 06:11 AM   #304
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
1) it is possible to tell good stories in highly unrealistic universes, and 2) there is no realistic yardstick which is actually comparable to starfleet.
True, but rational methodologies are likely to remain similar in any conceivable universe however unrealistic it might be in other ways, I would think.

I would suggest that there is no fictional universe where an organisation that behaved like ST09 Starfleet on a regular basis can hope to survive. Not unless activities in that entire universe are always based on luck and attempting to act rationally regarding its policies would be of no advantage. Even in true works of fantasy I donít think that has ever been the case.

If however, you mean that in special situations they just decide to take the risk on promoting people like Kirk etc, I think that cultural peculiarity should be mentioned in the story so the audience knows they aren't completely insane.

Your point about leniency in ST in general may be valid, but I donít think even in real life, it would be realistic to imprison Prime Kirk if he did the equivalent of saving the Earth.

I would give them more credit for if they had said more than: "Maybe you're not ready for command after all. Oh, wait, Pike's dead. Please, take my flagship now."
True. I guess I was throwing a bone to our esteemed adversaries. They do seem surprisingly hungry for people who keep claiming they have already eaten.


BillJ wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
You mean it should be allowed to tell a story whose culmination is completely irrational? I have to disagree.
Irrational to who exactly? The guy saved the planet and Spock Prime likely let someone in on the fact that he was going to be legendary.
It doesn't matter how legendary he might have been in another life, or might become in the current one if, through his present lack of training, he makes a bad call and loses the Enterprise, or worse.


BillJ wrote: View Post
Spock: To stop Nero, you alone must take command of your ship.

Spock was already stacking the deck for Kirk to be in command of the Enterprise.
The whole movie was doing that. But it still shouldn't have changed Starfleet's mind unless Spock also bribed them!


Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
At least you can't say he didn't have on the job training. Better too much training than to little.
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Old October 1 2013, 06:15 AM   #305
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
At least you can't say he didn't have on the job training. Better too much training than to little.
Yet Starfleet wanted him to start at the bottom.
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Old October 1 2013, 06:37 AM   #306
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
At least you can't say he didn't have on the job training. Better too much training than too little.
Yet Starfleet wanted him to start at the bottom.
Damned bureaucrats! Where were they in the nuVerse when we needed them?
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Old October 1 2013, 06:58 AM   #307
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post

I would give them more credit for if they had said more than: "Maybe you're not ready for command after all. Oh, wait, Pike's dead. Please, take my flagship now."
True. I guess I was throwing a bone to our esteemed adversaries. They do seem surprisingly hungry for people who keep claiming they have already eaten.
And after cautions to all in several currently-running threads (including this very one) about refraining from baiting and/or taking swipes at fans or fan groups with whom one might not agree... I am disappointed. I'm quite sure too, UFO, that I've spoken to you directly about this sort of thing before, and on more than one occasion.

Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.
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Old October 1 2013, 07:50 AM   #308
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post

I would give them more credit for if they had said more than: "Maybe you're not ready for command after all. Oh, wait, Pike's dead. Please, take my flagship now."
True. I guess I was throwing a bone to our esteemed adversaries. They do seem surprisingly hungry for people who keep claiming they have already eaten.
And after cautions to all in several currently-running threads (including this very one) about refraining from baiting and/or taking swipes at fans or fan groups with whom one might not agree... I am disappointed. I'm quite sure too, UFO, that I've spoken to you directly about this sort of thing before, and on more than one occasion.

Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.
My apologies to all.
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Old October 1 2013, 08:04 AM   #309
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
He suddenly knows everything just by getting a field commission?

He's at the Academy to further his education and learn discipline.
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Old October 1 2013, 09:27 AM   #310
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.
Star Trek and Starfleet very unrealistic when it comes to promotion (and the lack there of). Guys like Sulu, Riker, Chekov and LaForge should have had their own ships in a few years, not decades. Instead they hung around the Enterprise. Then we have Wes Crusher who goes from civilian to honorary Ensign to real Ensign to Cadet. I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year? Oh yeah, the actor was leaving the show.

Realism
You're right, calling Starfleet more realistic in this aspect was a bad choice of words. Starfleet actually takes even longer to promote people than real world organizations. Which makes ST09 even more wildly out of character for them.

UFO wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
1) it is possible to tell good stories in highly unrealistic universes, and 2) there is no realistic yardstick which is actually comparable to starfleet.
True, but rational methodologies are likely to remain similar in any conceivable universe however unrealistic it might be in other ways, I would think.

I would suggest that there is no fictional universe where an organisation that behaved like ST09 Starfleet on a regular basis can hope to survive. Not unless activities in that entire universe are always based on luck and attempting to act rationally regarding its policies would be of no advantage. Even in true works of fantasy I donít think that has ever been the case.
I'm not talking about some hypothetical alternate universe version of physics where nothing works the way its expected to - I'm talking about different stories operating under different rules. Sometimes the rationality or believability of the main characters is completely beside the point. But a story does have to make it clear that is the case, and not try to present itself as a semi-rational fantasy world like ST09.

If however, you mean that in special situations they just decide to take the risk on promoting people like Kirk etc, I think that cultural peculiarity should be mentioned in the story so the audience knows they aren't completely insane.
That's more or less what I'm saying. For instance, I could easily imagine St09 done as an independent Sci-fi property centered on a space empire which is described as holding the belief that new officers need to be thrown into the maelstrom and baptized by fire. In that context, I would have no problem with a young lt. already marked for some kind of command being rocketed to captain of a starship.

Your point about leniency in ST in general may be valid, but I donít think even in real life, it would be realistic to imprison Prime Kirk if he did the equivalent of saving the Earth.
I don't think so either, though it probably would be realistic to discharge him (perhaps still an honorable discharge, but still), depending on exactly what attitude the leadership wanted to take towards the Klingons. But that doesn't really matter to me, because that would still be fairly out of character for Starfleet.
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Old October 1 2013, 01:05 PM   #311
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Eh, in today's world, we have analogies for both Admiral Marcus and for Kirk's Promotion to captain.

If you're a democrat Supporter, then look at Dick Cheney, his "group" published a manifesto of their intention to remake the middle East, and we elected the man who put him up as Vice President to the most powerful position in the world, and they proceeded to carry out that plan, along with another member of that group who was appointed as Secretary of Defense.

If you're a Republican Supporter, we elected a man who was a Community Organizer to the most powerful position in the world. We pushed aside a woman, who had 8 years as the wife of someone in that position in order to do it. Pres. Obama really had no experience to justify his election as President, and not only did we elect him, over someone with far more experience, but, then, a month after he took office, before even had time to do anything other put pictures on his wife and kids on his desk, we gave him the Nobel Peace Prize. Heck, President Obama didn't even finish his Academy Training. He left his State Senate Seat to become a Federal Senator before finishing his term, and then spent most of the time in that Federal seat running for President, and he again left before serving his full first term.

How can anyone look at either of these two "promotions" and claim they are any more likely or "sane" than Admiral Marcus becoming an Admiral or Captain Kirk becoming a captain?
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Old October 1 2013, 05:15 PM   #312
Khan444
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.
Star Trek and Starfleet very unrealistic when it comes to promotion (and the lack there of). Guys like Sulu, Riker, Chekov and LaForge should have had their own ships in a few years, not decades. Instead they hung around the Enterprise. Then we have Wes Crusher who goes from civilian to honorary Ensign to real Ensign to Cadet. I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year? Oh yeah, the actor was leaving the show.

Realism
You're right, calling Starfleet more realistic in this aspect was a bad choice of words. Starfleet actually takes even longer to promote people than real world organizations. Which makes ST09 even more wildly out of character for them.



I'm not talking about some hypothetical alternate universe version of physics where nothing works the way its expected to - I'm talking about different stories operating under different rules. Sometimes the rationality or believability of the main characters is completely beside the point. But a story does have to make it clear that is the case, and not try to present itself as a semi-rational fantasy world like ST09.

If however, you mean that in special situations they just decide to take the risk on promoting people like Kirk etc, I think that cultural peculiarity should be mentioned in the story so the audience knows they aren't completely insane.
That's more or less what I'm saying. For instance, I could easily imagine St09 done as an independent Sci-fi property centered on a space empire which is described as holding the belief that new officers need to be thrown into the maelstrom and baptized by fire. In that context, I would have no problem with a young lt. already marked for some kind of command being rocketed to captain of a starship.

Your point about leniency in ST in general may be valid, but I donít think even in real life, it would be realistic to imprison Prime Kirk if he did the equivalent of saving the Earth.
I don't think so either, though it probably would be realistic to discharge him (perhaps still an honorable discharge, but still), depending on exactly what attitude the leadership wanted to take towards the Klingons. But that doesn't really matter to me, because that would still be fairly out of character for Starfleet.
His actions saved the Federation, and Pike probably recommended him, so I'm not seeing the issue her, sorry.
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Old October 1 2013, 09:32 PM   #313
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Me neither.

Kirk goes back in time to get whales to save earth and humanity and is excused from charges of conspiracy, assault of Federation Officers, theft of Federation property, and willful destruction of Federation property. The only charge that wasn't summarily dismissed was the "slap-on-the-wrist" charge that allowed Starfleet and the Federation President (for whatever reason HE was acting as judge at what should actually be a court martial, but anywho...) to hand Kirk and crew (who are all STILL TOGETHER after all these years) the keys to their very own brand spankin' new Starsip Enterprise - A.

This is Okee-Dokey.

But Lt. Kirk saves Pike and earth from the clutches of a Romulan madman from the future and his deadly uber-sphere o' red matter, and giving him the keys to the Enterprise is somehow ridiculous.
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Old October 1 2013, 10:17 PM   #314
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.
Star Trek and Starfleet very unrealistic when it comes to promotion (and the lack there of). Guys like Sulu, Riker, Chekov and LaForge should have had their own ships in a few years, not decades. Instead they hung around the Enterprise. Then we have Wes Crusher who goes from civilian to honorary Ensign to real Ensign to Cadet. I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year? Oh yeah, the actor was leaving the show.

Realism
You're right, calling Starfleet more realistic in this aspect was a bad choice of words. Starfleet actually takes even longer to promote people than real world organizations. Which makes ST09 even more wildly out of character for them.

I'm not talking about some hypothetical alternate universe version of physics where nothing works the way its expected to - I'm talking about different stories operating under different rules. Sometimes the rationality or believability of the main characters is completely beside the point. But a story does have to make it clear that is the case, and not try to present itself as a semi-rational fantasy world like ST09.
Actually my point is Star Trek and Starfleet are very inconsistent in this matter. Characters advance or stagnate as the plot needs them. Picard and Kirk become Captains in their early thirties and remain Captains (or get busted down) because the plot needs them to be Captains. Wes becomes an Ensign then loses that commission so he can leave the show under the excuse he's going to the Academy. If Frakes wanted to leave they very well might have given Riker his own command to send the character off. The only rule is what the show or film needs the character to be. ST09 is no different in this. Kirk becomes Captain because the expectation is he will be the Captain of the Enterprise. Its the same set of rules Star Trek has always used.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
He suddenly knows everything just by getting a field commission?

He's at the Academy to further his education and learn discipline.
Makes no sense. At best he goes to Command School or some sort of OCS rather than the full four year Academy program.

I wonder how many times Wes pissed off his classmate with "Well, when I was flight controller on the Enterprise..."
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Old October 1 2013, 10:21 PM   #315
SeerSGB
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
Me neither.

Kirk goes back in time to get whales to save earth and humanity and is excused from charges of conspiracy, assault of Federation Officers, theft of Federation property, and willful destruction of Federation property. The only charge that wasn't summarily dismissed was the "slap-on-the-wrist" charge that allowed Starfleet and the Federation President (for whatever reason HE was acting as judge at what should actually be a court martial, but anywho...) to hand Kirk and crew (who are all STILL TOGETHER after all these years) the keys to their very own brand spankin' new Starsip Enterprise - A.

This is Okee-Dokey.

But Lt. Kirk saves Pike and earth from the clutches of a Romulan madman from the future and his deadly uber-sphere o' red matter, and giving him the keys to the Enterprise is somehow ridiculous.
And on scale, Nero was the bigger threat of the two films. the Whalesong probe would have done it's thing and moved on; Nero was hell bent on trashing the Federation.
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