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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 30 2013, 10:24 PM   #286
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
...
Just like Prime Jim Kirk got put back in the chair instead of going to prison because of reasons.

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.
Seems I deliberately preempted that objection here. Of course that was a couple of days ago ...


Opus wrote: View Post
What good is it for a show that is meant to entertain having their main characters scattered across the galaxy aboard different ships and starbases under different commands?

It doesn't.

Same goes with Abramss and Orci's choices in nuTrek. I don't care about Prime Universe' command track for Kirk. I don't care that he served aboard Lexington as an Ensign, or shuffled papers at Starbase 12, or taught courses at Starfleet Academy as a Lt. You know what? That's BORING!
Re your first point: I am not willing to say that because some relatively minor issues are compromised to make a show work, everything is fair game. Re your second point: Then don't show the boring bits, but make sure we know it happened. You are just excusing bad story telling.

I like that this Universe took these young people and slammed them together during dire circumstances and now have to learn to work together in a baptism by fire to become the characters we know. I like it because it's interesting, it's different, and dang it - IT'S FUN!
I am not being a party pooper. It in no way reduces your FUN if the story is written in such a way that the aftermath is believable. Of course it may be a little harder to write.

Now if not following policy and procedure doesn't do it for ya', that's fine. Not every bit of Trek is my cup o' tea either. But remember, nuTrek isn't doing anything as unorthodox as any other Trek that has come before it. Different - YES. As unorthodox - NO.
"Unorthodox" sounds like another euphemism to me.

I can't remember a decision that compromises Starfleet's basic structure that much. Command of the Enterprise in not a bunch of flowers.


BillJ wrote: View Post
From "mailroom to boardroom" has been a Hollywood staple since the beginning and even though I might have handled things differently, Orci and Kurtzman picked a valid storytelling device.
I guess they just need to realise when a particular "storytelling device" is appropriate and when it isn't or figure out a way to using it more rationally.

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.
I wouldn't give up on "realism" quite so quickly. Putting someone in jail after they saved the planet the jail is on, is politically unpalatable to say the least! In my view the bar may have been lowered a bit for fiction but not removed completely.

There were more options available than just 'Mind numbing realism' and 'wildly uncharacteristic chaos'.
Exactly.

If it were totally new trek, just cut all ties and create a new universe, I wouldn't argue this point at all.
I would. If they are going to call it Trek, it should make some sort of sense. Doing what they did wouldn't work in any universe unless it was a childerns show (assuming the makers had no respect for children).


BillJ wrote: View Post
This is just non-sense. It's a story about a young hotshot becoming a leader. Just because Star Trek has never told that type of story before doesn't mean it is somehow forbidden from doing so now.
You mean it should be allowed to tell a story whose culmination is completely irrational? I have to disagree.

And yes, we shouldn't forget that the writers made an effort to correct it. Well done for that.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:30 PM   #287
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
And it's not forbidden from doing so now, as long as it does so in a manner that seems at least remotely consistent with the way the Federation has always worked before.
We've seen seven-hundred hours out of two centuries of Earth/Federation history spread across a few ships. So, honestly, we have no real idea of how the Federation or Starfleet works.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:31 PM   #288
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post
You mean it should be allowed to tell a story whose culmination is completely irrational? I have to disagree.
Irrational to who exactly? The guy saved the planet and Spock Prime likely let someone in on the fact that he was going to be legendary.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:38 PM   #289
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post
I wouldn't give up on "realism" quite so quickly. Putting someone in jail after they saved the planet the jail is on, is politically unpalatable to say the least! In my view the bar may have been lowered a bit for fiction but not removed completely.
Of course there are always limits, though they change depending on what kind of story you're telling. The reason I don't approach this from a standpoint of realism is twofold: 1) it is possible to tell good stories in highly unrealistic universes, and 2) there is no realistic yardstick which is actually comparable to starfleet.

If nuTrek had been a full reboot in which this sort of thing is fully acceptable, then that's just the way things work in that fictional universe. I would have no problem with that - as long as the stories themselves were also actually good stories, of course.

As for Starfleet's realism, it's fairly well established that Starfleet has some very basic philosophical differences from any modern military or paramilitary organization. Leniency in punishment is one of the most obvious consequences of that, and it's a significant pattern seen, I believe in every series - Kirk's demotion is far from the only example. Making Starfleet suddenly start throwing the book at every officer who broke the rules would be very 'realistic', but still completely out of character for this organization.

And yes, we shouldn't forget that the writers made an effort to correct it. Well done for that.
I would give them more credit for if they had said more than:

"Maybe you're not ready for command after all. Oh, wait, Pike's dead. Please, take my flagship now."
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Old September 30 2013, 10:38 PM   #290
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
honestly, we have no real idea of how the Federation or Starfleet works.
Of course, believability for an audience does depend on fitting some plausible precedent within the universe (both ours and the fictional one analoguing it) whether we know everything about it or not. That's what UFO is trying to explain to you. What you're providing here is really just another version of the lame "it's fantasy, so believability isn't relevant" bad writing defense.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:40 PM   #291
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
We've seen seven-hundred hours out of two centuries of Earth/Federation history spread across a few ships. So, honestly, we have no real idea of how the Federation or Starfleet works.
We've seen several hundred hours of indications of what the Federation is probably like. If you want to undo that in a 2 hour film, you have to do something to earn it. Not just drop it in and hope no one notices.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:45 PM   #292
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
We've seen seven-hundred hours out of two centuries of Earth/Federation history spread across a few ships. So, honestly, we have no real idea of how the Federation or Starfleet works.
We've seen several hundred hours of indications of what the Federation is probably like. If you want to undo that in a 2 hour film, you have to do something to earn it. Not just drop it in and hope no one notices.
No, you really don't. You may have to earn it within the context of the film itself, but you certainly do not have to "earn it" in reference to the rest of Trek--the alternate timeline makes that moot.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:49 PM   #293
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
honestly, we have no real idea of how the Federation or Starfleet works.
Of course, believability for an audience does depend on fitting some plausible precedent within the universe (both ours and the fictional one analoguing it) whether we know everything about it or not. That's what UFO is trying to explain to you. What you're providing here is really just another version of the lame "it's fantasy, so believability isn't relevant" bad writing defense.
Once again, you clip off what I'm saying mid-sentence.

And what I'm saying is maybe we don't know everything we think we know about the Federation and Starfleet. It's a big universe and too hold all subsequent productions to those seven-hundred hours of material cuts future creators off at the knees.

No Cardassian can ever like BBQ Pork because no episode/movie has ever referenced it happening before.

Spock: To stop Nero, you alone must take command of your ship.

Spock was already stacking the deck for Kirk to be in command of the Enterprise.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:51 PM   #294
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ovation wrote: View Post
We've seen several hundred hours of indications of what the Federation is probably like. If you want to undo that in a 2 hour film, you have to do something to earn it. Not just drop it in and hope no one notices.
No, you really don't. You may have to earn it within the context of the film itself, but you certainly do not have to "earn it" in reference to the rest of Trek--the alternate timeline makes that moot.
That's like saying you wouldn't have to earn it if you wanted to make a DS9 episode where Dukat goes back in time and gets the Bajorans to elect him Kai, because it's an alternate timeline, so the basic character of the Bajoran/Cardassian relationship becomes entirely irrelevant.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:52 PM   #295
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

That's like saying you wouldn't have to earn it if you wanted to make a DS9 episode where Dukat goes back in time and gets the Bajorans to elect him Kai, because it's an alternate timeline, so the basic character of the Bajoran/Cardassian relationship becomes entirely irrelevant.
No. It can happen because the dynamics of the relationship could have changed.
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Old September 30 2013, 11:01 PM   #296
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
And what I'm saying is maybe we don't know everything we think we know about the Federation and Starfleet. It's a big universe and too hold all subsequent productions to those seven-hundred hours of material cuts future creators off at the knees.

No Cardassian can ever like BBQ Pork because no episode/movie has ever referenced it happening before.
We're not talking about food preferences of random individuals. Kirk's promotion only makes sense inside a larger culture of promoting officers who make miraculous saves. And despite many miraculous saves in all those hundreds of hours, we have never before seen even the slightest hint of such a loose culture of promotions.

Maybe Kirk and Picard and Sisko and Janeway all refused whatever rewards they were offered for saving earth or various other planets, without it being referenced onscreen. But why did all the junior officers who single handedly saved starships still have to wait years, if ever, to be promoted at all, let alone leapfrogging ranks? Did Wesley say 'No, I don't want to be a lieutenant.'? Did O'Brien say 'I'd rather stay non-commissioned, thanks.'?

Spock: To stop Nero, you alone must take command of your ship.

Spock was already stacking the deck for Kirk to be in command of the Enterprise.
Which is itself very un-Spock-like. Even within purely nuTrek continuity, he's supposed to be incapable of undermining the rules in any way. It was a big part of the STID storyline.
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Old September 30 2013, 11:03 PM   #297
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

That's like saying you wouldn't have to earn it if you wanted to make a DS9 episode where Dukat goes back in time and gets the Bajorans to elect him Kai, because it's an alternate timeline, so the basic character of the Bajoran/Cardassian relationship becomes entirely irrelevant.
No. It can happen because the dynamics of the relationship could have changed.
Not when the Occupation is already historical fact. Much like the Federation has already taken full form before the Narada's arrival.
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Old October 1 2013, 01:07 AM   #298
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Opus wrote: View Post
We did, although Sisko was promoted off Defiant, Dax was made Captain of Defiant, Worf was made first officer aboard Martok's ship. All temporary of course, but why? Simply put - The story overrides the "realistic".
Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.
Star Trek and Starfleet very unrealistic when it comes to promotion (and the lack there of). Guys like Sulu, Riker, Chekov and LaForge should have had their own ships in a few years, not decades. Instead they hung around the Enterprise. Then we have Wes Crusher who goes from civilian to honorary Ensign to real Ensign to Cadet. I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year? Oh yeah, the actor was leaving the show.

Realism
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Old October 1 2013, 03:38 AM   #299
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year?
The Academy is a place of learning. There is the regular four-year course, but there are probably lots of other courses for people updating their qualifications, or developing new interests. We saw Saavik as a Lieutenant j.g., but doing her Kobayashi Maru test for the first time (ST II), so this is perhaps something you do in "Command School" after the main course, as an add-on? In which case, perhaps Kirk in the new movies compressed the four-year course into two years, and then did Command School - or perhaps did it concurrently?

Wes Crusher probably took a "temporary grade reduction" (terminology from TMP) from his field commission to go to the Academy so he wouldn't outrank second-, third- and fourth-year cadets. After graduating, he may have been able to retrieve that initial rank, or improve upon it.

Gene Roddenberry was once quoted as saying that, "In Starfleet, rank is more of a job description".

I once held the position of teacher-librarian, but without the Grad. Dip. required of teacher-librarians in Australia, because there were no trained TLs available to fill a vacancy in my school. I'd once done an introductory course, years earlier, but it was not sufficient to retain the job permanently and I had to learn on the job. Any trained TL could have challenged me to the right to occupy the position. I then retrained for a year (another untrained TL in my old position, who also ended up retraining).
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Old October 1 2013, 04:00 AM   #300
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But if he's already a commissioned officer why even go to the Academy? And why start as a first year cadet?
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