RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,429
Posts: 5,507,072
Members: 25,131
Currently online: 567
Newest member: Robert100a

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 30 2013, 08:44 PM   #271
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
But if that leeway goes the other way, too, where was Picard's promotion for saving earth in FC or Nemesis?
I assume Picard chose to stay on Ent-E.

Or Riker's promotion for BOBW?
Shelby to Riker: "I'm sure you'll have a choice of any command in the fleet."

Riker had already turned down command twice. I assume he held off again until The Titan came available.

Or Janeway's for Dark Frontier?
Consider they were in The Delta Quadrant for quite a time. No advancement in rank when you're already the highest ranking office on the only ship. Also, she was promoted over Picard to Admiral as seen in NEM.

Even in the middle of the Dominion war, while captains were dropping like flies and officers were performing rather amazing and unusually independent acts on a regular basis, we saw relatively few promotions.
We did, although Sisko was promoted off Defiant, Dax was made Captain of Defiant, Worf was made first officer aboard Martok's ship. All temporary of course, but why? Simply put - The story overrides the "realistic". What good is it for a show that is meant to entertain having their main characters scattered across the galaxy aboard different ships and starbases under different commands?

It doesn't.

Same goes with Abramss and Orci's choices in nuTrek. I don't care about Prime Universe' command track for Kirk. I don't care that he served aboard Lexington as an Ensign, or shuffled papers at Starbase 12, or taught courses at Starfleet Academy as a Lt. You know what? That's BORING!

I like that this Universe took these young people and slammed them together during dire circumstances and now have to learn to work together in a baptism by fire to become the characters we know. I like it because it's interesting, it's different, and dang it - IT'S FUN!

Now if not following policy and procedure doesn't do it for ya', that's fine. Not every bit of Trek is my cup o' tea either. But remember, nuTrek isn't doing anything as unorthodox as any other Trek that has come before it. Different - YES. As unorthodox - NO.
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 08:47 PM   #272
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Just like Prime Jim Kirk got put back in the chair instead of going to prison because of reasons.

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.
Starfleet's always had lots of leeway for not punishing people. Wasn't Spock's joyride to Talos iv in the Menagerie supposed to be a capital crime? But he didn't even get an official reprimand, because giving Pike a good retirement was enough of a good cause to nullify Federation law. So of course saving earth will be a good way to not be punished for something. And that's only one of many examples.

But if that leeway goes the other way, too, where was Picard's promotion for saving earth in FC or Nemesis? Or Riker's promotion for BOBW? Or Janeway's for Dark Frontier? Even in the middle of the Dominion war, while captains were dropping like flies and officers were performing rather amazing and unusually independent acts on a regular basis, we saw relatively few promotions.
Picard had no interest in being an Admiral, he was happy Captaining the Enterprise, so, that wouldn't have been considered a reward.

Riker was offered Captaincy several times and refused, during the Series, the only ship he was interested in Captaining was Enterprise.

Janeway was made Admiral shortly after her return the Delta Quadrant, wasn't she? And really, she did a lot of stuff that would merit punishment, so...

And, really, promotions, like Warp speed go at the speed of plot
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 08:52 PM   #273
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post

Same goes with Abramss and Orci's choices in nuTrek. I don't care about Prime Universe' command track for Kirk. I don't care that he served aboard Lexington as an Ensign, or shuffled papers at Starbase 12, or taught courses at Starfleet Academy as a Lt. You know what? That's BORING!

I like that this Universe took these young people and slammed them together during dire circumstances and now have to learn to work together in a baptism by fire to become the characters we know. I like it because it's interesting, it's different, and dang it - IT'S FUN!

Now if not following policy and procedure doesn't do it for ya', that's fine. Not every bit of Trek is my cup o' tea either. But remember, nuTrek isn't doing anything as unorthodox as any other Trek that has come before it. Different - YES. As unorthodox - NO.
In the Prime Universe, Kirk went from Captain to Admiral to Captain to Admiral to Captain. Not exactly believable.

From "mailroom to boardroom" has been a Hollywood staple since the beginning and even though I might have handled things differently, Orci and Kurtzman picked a valid storytelling device.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 09:02 PM   #274
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
We did, although Sisko was promoted off Defiant, Dax was made Captain of Defiant, Worf was made first officer aboard Martok's ship. All temporary of course, but why? Simply put - The story overrides the "realistic".
Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.

And Dax commanding the Defiant was specifically one of the examples I had in mind when I mentioned officers operating highly succesfully with an unusual degree of independence *without* ever being promoted. Sisko and Worf weren't actually promoted, either. Kira was, very close to the end of the war. Without having done any great spectacular action beforehand.

Same goes with Abramss and Orci's choices in nuTrek. I don't care about Prime Universe' command track for Kirk. I don't care that he served aboard Lexington as an Ensign, or shuffled papers at Starbase 12, or taught courses at Starfleet Academy as a Lt. You know what? That's BORING!
And i've never once asked for a movie centered on that. There were more options available than just 'Mind numbing realism' and 'wildly uncharacteristic chaos'.

I like that this Universe took these young people and slammed them together during dire circumstances and now have to learn to work together in a baptism by fire to become the characters we know. I like it because it's interesting, it's different, and dang it - IT'S FUN!
The movie is reasonably fun. It has a sense of humor that a lot of other trek lacked. But there's no reason to think it couldn't have been made both fun *and* believable.

If it were totally new trek, just cut all ties and create a new universe, I wouldn't argue this point at all. But they didn't want to do that. They specifically bent over backwards to prove the nuTrek Federation is exactly the same as the old Federation, with just minor changes, and then ended the movie with a promotion that never would've happened in the old Federation, a promotion that the story never bothered to earn because: 'He's Kirk! Of course he must be captain! Screw logic!'
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 09:04 PM   #275
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
In the Prime Universe, Kirk went from Captain to Admiral to Captain to Admiral to Captain. Not exactly believable.
Great point.

TMP we have Kirk in conflict about his career and his life. His passion is command, his love is Enterprise. A crisis allows him the opportunity to get his command back, and he takes a reduction in rank to Captain. At the end of the movie, he's firmly established as her captain again.

Buuuuut....

By the next movie, here he is, an admiral again, in conflict about his career and his life. His passion is command, his love is Enterprise...

Wash, Rinse, Repeat? WTF?

Then, by certain unmitigated circumstances, he gets reduced in rank to Captain (again) and is given a squeaky clean nuEnterprise for his troubles. By the President of The Federation, of all people (I thought Starfleet was military, thus should have been a courtmartial, but anywho...)

People don't like the "Prime Universe Did It Too" argument. Too bad. You can't hold nuTrek to a standard Prime Universe Trek NEVER HELD.
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 09:12 PM   #276
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.
Show me another junior officer who saved the homeworld of the Federation from a futuristic madman who was treated differently then we'll talk.

'He's Kirk! Of course he must be captain! Screw logic!'
Well, I don't find it all that illogical since Hollywood has been telling variations of "from the mailroom to the boardroom" since the beginning.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 09:22 PM   #277
Cap'n Claus
Rear Admiral
 
Cap'n Claus's Avatar
 
Location: ssosmcin
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Well, to be fair, they did try to find reasons.

There was lots of in-universe time between TMP and TWOK. In spite of Kirk's intentions, in the service, you go where you're told. Apparently going back to the admiralty was one of those things.

The "demotion" was his reward. He stayed a captain until his died.

It's not so much "they did it here too" as "they tried to have it make sense here." With the apparent removal of the commodore rank, Admiral of some level was the next step up from Captain. One step.

When compared to a cadet on academic probation being leapfrogged to Captain of the newest and niftiest ship in the fleet over a bunch of other, more experienced and mature people because Spock saved Earth, it sticks out. And Spock did the real heavy lifting in saving Earth and defeating Nero. All Kirk did was save Pike and say "you got it" before firing at an already dying ship. Kirk could have sat in his chair, backed the Enterprise out and ate pudding while watching Nero slide into the singularity.

Anyway, since it was addressed and made into a major lot point in the follow up, I don't care anymore. Because it was like they said "yeah, that was kinda weird, so let's talk about it." Good. Well played. Into Darkness was, for me, the much better film and a shitload of fun.
__________________
"Tranya is people!"
Cap'n Claus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 09:39 PM   #278
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Show me another junior officer who saved the homeworld of the Federation from a futuristic madman who was treated differently then we'll talk.
Ensign Wesley Crusher and Ensign Robin Lefler saved the Federation from an alien takeover (TNG The Game). I believe their reward was... a pat on the back?

'He's Kirk! Of course he must be captain! Screw logic!'
Well, I don't find it all that illogical since Hollywood has been telling variations of "from the mailroom to the boardroom" since the beginning.
Which is great when the world the story takes place in is either brand new or clearly understand to be the kind of world where that sort of thing happens. When it's a pre-existing world where that sort of thing has never happened before, it has to be earned.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 09:47 PM   #279
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Which is great when the world the story takes place in is either brand new or clearly understand to be the kind of world where that sort of thing happens. When it's a pre-existing world where that sort of thing has never happened before, it has to be earned.
This is just non-sense. It's a story about a young hotshot becoming a leader. Just because Star Trek has never told that type of story before doesn't mean it is somehow forbidden from doing so now.

I haven't seen The Game in many, many years but I'm pretty sure they saved the Enterprise not the Federation. I was going to look at the transcript but Chrissie's website seems to be down right now.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 09:57 PM   #280
Cyke101
Rear Admiral
 
Cyke101's Avatar
 
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Well, I don't find it all that illogical since Hollywood has been telling variations of "from the mailroom to the boardroom" since the beginning.
This might be a stretch on my part, but this point reminds me of Arrested Development and, in a way, TVH, where it's the reverse -- a Riches to Rags story, while TVH is Admiral Kirk who can't quite use his authority outside of his crew because it's a different time. He has to depend on a rustbucket instead of his trusty, powerful Enterprise. His crew faces the thread of jail time and ultimately Kirk even gets demoted in the process. To me, both AD and TVH are very enjoyable because they're both essentially fish out of water stories that happen in very rapid succession.

Okay, brainfart over. You may continue with the thread
__________________
“You do not use science in order to prove yourself right, you use science in order to become right.”
Cyke101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 10:00 PM   #281
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Show me another junior officer who saved the homeworld of the Federation from a futuristic madman who was treated differently then we'll talk.
Ensign Wesley Crusher and Ensign Robin Lefler saved the Federation from an alien takeover (TNG The Game). I believe their reward was... a pat on the back?

'He's Kirk! Of course he must be captain! Screw logic!'
Well, I don't find it all that illogical since Hollywood has been telling variations of "from the mailroom to the boardroom" since the beginning.
Which is great when the world the story takes place in is either brand new or clearly understand to be the kind of world where that sort of thing happens. When it's a pre-existing world where that sort of thing has never happened before, it has to be earned.
I think the worst thing that could ever happen to Star Trek is them refusing to do stories because they aren't "realistic" enough. Star Trek is suppose to be fun action-adventure with a sci-fi flavor not a manual on military promotion regulations and practices.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 10:13 PM   #282
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
This is just non-sense. It's a story about a young hotshot becoming a leader. Just because Star Trek has never told that type of story before doesn't mean it is somehow forbidden from doing so now.
And it's not forbidden from doing so now, as long as it does so in a manner that seems at least remotely consistent with the way the Federation has always worked before.

Kirk could just as easily have been a young hotshot lt. cmdr. with experience, instead of a young hotshot cadet on academic suspension. Or the story could have been altered to show a threat far more devastating than ever shown before in Star Trek. Or it could have made even the slightest effort to show that Kirk had a brilliant Captain's mind and clearly was destined for greatness, rather than just telling us how special he is and then spending an hour showing him being very not special. In short, they could have actually earned it.

I haven't seen The Game in many, many years but I'm pretty sure they saved the Enterprise not the Federation. I was going to look at the transcript but Chrissie's website seems to be down right now.
The Enterprise was a means to an end, the end being distributing their mind control things all over the Federation. And even then - if this sort of thing is normal for the Federation, then saving the flagship of the fleet - entirely on their own, which is much more than Kirk did - should be worth at least a promotion to Lt. JG, yet Wesley is just expected to go straight back to the academy like nothing happened.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 10:18 PM   #283
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
I think the worst thing that could ever happen to Star Trek is them refusing to do stories because they aren't "realistic" enough. Star Trek is suppose to be fun action-adventure with a sci-fi flavor not a manual on military promotion regulations and practices.
And no matter how many times people repeat this rebuttal, it still has nothing to do with my argument. I'm not talking about realism.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 10:18 PM   #284
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
This is just non-sense. It's a story about a young hotshot becoming a leader. Just because Star Trek has never told that type of story before doesn't mean it is somehow forbidden from doing so now.
And it's not forbidden from doing so now, as long as it does so in a manner that seems at least remotely consistent with the way the Federation has always worked before.
Totally and utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. This only matters to a subset of original Trek fans (subset because there are many like me, fan since 1973, that couldn't care less about such things) and Paramount was not aiming at that subset.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2013, 10:21 PM   #285
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ovation wrote: View Post
Totally and utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. This only matters to a subset of original Trek fans (subset because there are many like me, fan since 1973, that couldn't care less about such things) and Paramount was not aiming at that subset.
Paramount was aiming for relatively mindless fun in the form of a popular action movie. And they got that. Yay for them. That's not relevant to any discussion of how good the movie actually is.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:35 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.