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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 30 2013, 04:27 AM   #256
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
.

Nerys, however, claims that all their commissions were "activated" at some point in the proceedings. Maybe that's true, if so I certainly missed it.
That would be the part where they're all assigned ships and change into active duty uniforms.

There is an somewhat ambiguous line in WNMHGB that implies Prime Kirk held the rank of Lieutenant while at the Academy/
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Old September 30 2013, 04:43 AM   #257
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Right. So that... sort of helps, I guess? Getting the cap's chair a couple of days from graduation as a battlefield promotion is... kind of? More believable? By a bit?

I guess that at least puts it in just the same category of silliness as "demoting" Kirk to the role "for which he has shown unswerving ability" in STIV, if that floats one's boat. Sure.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:58 AM   #258
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
Right. So that... sort of helps, I guess? Getting the cap's chair a couple of days from graduation as a battlefield promotion is... kind of? More believable? By a bit?

I guess that at least puts it in just the same category of silliness as "demoting" Kirk to the role "for which he has shown unswerving ability" in STIV, if that floats one's boat. Sure.
Talking about the commissions, not the promotion. Not every post is about that.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:09 AM   #259
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Talking about the commissions, not the promotion. Not every post is about that.
Well, since I was talking about the commissions in relation to the promotions, I hope you won't mind too much my referencing the original context.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:20 AM   #260
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Talking about the commissions, not the promotion. Not every post is about that.
Well, since I was talking about the commissions in relation to the promotions, I hope you won't mind too much my referencing the original context.
Since you phrased it like I was trying to use it in support the idea of the promotion, yeah I do mind.

The part of your post I quoted was about the commissions and when they happened. I clarified that for you and you got all snarky in response.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:31 AM   #261
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I clarified that for you and you got all snarky in response.
Then I'm pleased to have the opportunity to confirm that I wasn't attempting snark or to accuse you of anything. Just musing, is all.
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Old September 30 2013, 08:55 AM   #262
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
.

Nerys, however, claims that all their commissions were "activated" at some point in the proceedings. Maybe that's true, if so I certainly missed it.
That would be the part where they're all assigned ships and change into active duty uniforms.
...
All except for Kirk of course, who was on academic suspension. So why was he commissioned? Computer glitch? Oversight?

Anyway (on the assumption the commissioning could be seen as defending Kirk's promotion, even if not intended to) in my view, the point is not that we can call any flower a rose. The question is whether it "smells as sweet". I.e. Substance over style surely applies, meaning that calling Kirk a Lt. doesn't add anything to his qualifications. So in my view it doesn't make things better.
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Old September 30 2013, 02:00 PM   #263
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post

Right again! Believability was not about slavish adherence to minutiae. Not that we've been discussing any such thing.
In universe, there is nothing to me that is out of place in the promotion of Jim Kirk to Captain. I've seen a Starfleet that has done many, many things that kill any attempt to try and compare it to a modern military.

It's not the way I would've handled it had I been writing, but I'm not the one writing the Trek films and it didn't hamper my enjoyment of the Abrams films.
But how many times have you seen Starfleet promote an officer 2+ ranks above their current position (let alone an officer who is technically still a cadet)?

And, to complete the comparison, how many times have you seen Starfleet officers save Earth, or any other heavily inhabited planet (all of which should be pretty much equally important to the Federation)?

Now tell me again how this seems entirely in character for Starfleet.

And, on a more general note, since this topic seems to have moved entirely away from what we were talking about yesterday, I would still really love to see an answer from someone to this question:

How does a theoretical increased militarization of Starfleet as a result of the Kelvin attack result in a promotion policy which is actually far less believable militarily than anything Starfleet has ever been shown to do before?
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Old September 30 2013, 02:04 PM   #264
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote:
(all of which should be pretty much equally important to the Federation)
But, in practice, really wouldn't be.
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Old September 30 2013, 02:19 PM   #265
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Set Harth wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote:
(all of which should be pretty much equally important to the Federation)
But, in practice, really wouldn't be.
Maybe not. But at least a few planets other than Earth would be (like Vulcan - which Kirk didn't save...). And ST09 still isn't at all the first time Starfleet officers have saved Earth - but it is the first time they've ever received such an over the top reward for doing so. It doesn't fit the idea of what Starfleet has always been, plain and simple. Comparisons to the real world are entirely beside the point.
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Old September 30 2013, 02:21 PM   #266
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
.

Nerys, however, claims that all their commissions were "activated" at some point in the proceedings. Maybe that's true, if so I certainly missed it.
That would be the part where they're all assigned ships and change into active duty uniforms.
...
All except for Kirk of course, who was on academic suspension. So why was he commissioned? Computer glitch? Oversight?
I always took it to be when Pike made him First Officer, he (or possibly even Spock) activated his Starfleet commission and gave him the battlefield rank of Lt.

It seems likely he, like Uhura and possibly Sulu depending on if he was a Cadet before, were in line to become Lieutenants when the graduated.

So Lt to Captain is less of a jump than from Cadet, its still a big jump though.
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Old September 30 2013, 02:54 PM   #267
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

starburst wrote: View Post
So Lt to Captain is less of a jump than from Cadet, its still a big jump though.
UFO does have it right, though, that the formalities of rank in which we got caught up yesterday probably matter a lot less than the actualities of qualification. The original Kirk had a chance to prove himself in something like an actual career; the rebooted version is simply impelled into the chair because of reasons.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:01 PM   #268
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
So Lt to Captain is less of a jump than from Cadet, its still a big jump though.
UFO does have it right, though, that the formalities of rank in which we got caught up yesterday probably matter a lot less than the actualities of qualification. The original Kirk had a chance to prove himself in something like an actual career; the rebooted version is simply impelled into the chair because of reasons.
Just like Prime Jim Kirk got put back in the chair instead of going to prison because of reasons.

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.
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Old September 30 2013, 08:17 PM   #269
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.
And considering Starfleet is not a straight military organization, but a quasi-military/civilian defensive, exploration and colonization arm of The Federation, it would make sense that there is such leeway, both in the Prime Universe as well as the nuVerse.
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Old September 30 2013, 08:22 PM   #270
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post

Just like Prime Jim Kirk got put back in the chair instead of going to prison because of reasons.

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.
Starfleet's always had lots of leeway for not punishing people. Wasn't Spock's joyride to Talos iv in the Menagerie supposed to be a capital crime? But he didn't even get an official reprimand, because giving Pike a good retirement was enough of a good cause to nullify Federation law. So of course saving earth will be a good way to not be punished for something. And that's only one of many examples.

But if that leeway goes the other way, too, where was Picard's promotion for saving earth in FC or Nemesis? Or Riker's promotion for BOBW? Or Janeway's for Dark Frontier? Even in the middle of the Dominion war, while captains were dropping like flies and officers were performing rather amazing and unusually independent acts on a regular basis, we saw relatively few promotions.
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