RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 146,387
Posts: 5,768,576
Members: 25,939
Currently online: 481
Newest member: robertjosn

TrekToday headlines

Trekonomics Book
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3

Shore Leave 37 Convention
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3

Two New ThinkGeek Trek-themed Items
By: T'Bonz on Jul 2

July-August 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Jul 2

Pegg: Star Trek Beyond Scary
By: T'Bonz on Jul 2

San Diego Comic-Con Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 1

Nimoy Memories From Friends and Family
By: T'Bonz on Jul 1

Stewart: It’s in My Genes
By: T'Bonz on Jun 30

Star Trek Beyond
By: T'Bonz on Jun 30

Trek-themed Car Accessories
By: T'Bonz on Jun 29


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 29 2013, 07:39 PM   #226
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
You said yourself. In the same post.
The real-life examples I was talking about were not promotions of cadets. I honestly don't understand what you're finding hard to grasp about that.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:40 PM   #227
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Kirk was a Lt.

He was also made First Officer by Pike. I guess that's a battlefield commission.
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:40 PM   #228
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
So what exactly is the problem here?
That battlefield promotions tend to happen with commissioned officers and not cadets? I thought you knew what kind of "believability" we were talking about here.

Okay, really going.
Kirk was a commissioned officer since he carries the rank of Lieutenant.

Look, I had a problem with Cadet-to-Captain as well. I'd have rather had him been a disgraced Lt. Commander (I believe it was a poster named Kelso who first came up with that angle) but to say it somehow was a problem because Trek was always believable (or even tried to be) when it came to how it portrayed Starfleet is just plain non-sense.

I don't believe in holding one form of Trek to a standard that I don't hold other forms of Trek to.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:42 PM   #229
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Look, I had a problem with Cadet-to-Captain as well. . .
Thank you.

but to say it somehow was a problem because Trek was always believable (or even tried to be) when it came to how it portrayed Starfleet is just plain non-sense.
Good thing that isn't what I said.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:43 PM   #230
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't believe in holding one form of Trek to a standard that I don't hold other forms of Trek to.
Nor has Trek ever held to itself.
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:48 PM   #231
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
Kirk was a Lt.
A cadet officer, not a commissioned officer. Cadets have officer ranks, they are not commissions.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:49 PM   #232
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Look, I had a problem with Cadet-to-Captain as well. . .
Thank you.

but to say it somehow was a problem because Trek was always believable (or even tried to be) when it came to how it portrayed Starfleet is just plain non-sense.
Good thing that isn't what I said.
My mistake...

BigJake wrote: View Post

Actually, one of the best innovations of the original Trek was the commitment to making the human institutions involved believable to a contemporary audience. It was permissible to extrapolate, but the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say "Well, it's science fiction." It was one of many smart Trek ideas that helped differentiate the show from the pure camp that went before it and that the NuTrek version of the franchise has forgotten.
...I thought this was from one of your posts.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:51 PM   #233
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
Opus wrote: View Post
Kirk was a Lt.
A cadet officer, not a commissioned officer. Cadets have officer ranks, they are not commissions.
Do you have any actual proof of this or is it another interpretation?

Someone else wanna shot a hole in this? I'm getting tired of typing!
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:52 PM   #234
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
I thought this was from one of your posts.
It is. Notice how it says "the ideal was"? I have never said the ideal was perfectly adhered to, just that it was stronger in the best of Trek and weaker in the worst of Trek. I get that it's more satisfying to pretend that you're arguing against some extremist position, but one might say with all due respect that it is rather bad form.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:55 PM   #235
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Do you have any actual proof of this or is it another interpretation?
Far as I remember, he's clearly stated to be a cadet from the outset, is not promoted beyond cadet before the battle with Nero, and is promoted from cadet to captain at the end of the film. So, it's a recollection of what the film says. If I'm mistaken or missed a point in the film, then by all means correct me, but I don't think I have and I think you're still dancing. Especially given that you yourself have already admitted the cadet-to-captain things was a problem. (Poor performance, Commander Burns, I think we shall have to demote you.)
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:57 PM   #236
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I thought this was from one of your posts.
It is. Notice how it says "the ideal was"? I have never said the ideal was perfectly adhered to, just that it was stronger in the best of Trek and weaker in the worst of Trek. I get that it's more satisfying to pretend that you're arguing against some extremist position, but one might say with all due respect that it is rather bad form.
It doesn't matter what the "ideal" was. What matters was what we actually got on the screen. And on screen we got a Starfleet that acted however the story needed it to act, not one that acted like a real military.

You're holding Abrams and Company to a different standard than the TOS gang and those who came afterward. It's okay, but at least admit that's what you are doing.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 07:59 PM   #237
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Do you have any actual proof of this or is it another interpretation?
Far as I remember, he's clearly stated to be a cadet from the outset, is not promoted beyond cadet before the battle with Nero...
So, no?
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 08:00 PM   #238
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter what the "ideal" was.
I respectfully disagree. The existence of the ideal made a real difference to what got on the screen, whatever its imperfections, and genuinely did set Trek off from prior televised SF. You are of course free to disagree with this, but again, it's hard to see how doing so particularly bolsters your credibility as a rational judge of TOS' flaws, of what's believable and what isn't.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 08:02 PM   #239
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
So, no?
So, claiming that I have no proof about the content of the film except the content of the film is your angle?

Admiral Burns, you magnificent bastard. Captain Zinger is starting to look like his career is standing still.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 08:05 PM   #240
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
...genuinely did set Trek off from prior televised SF...
What set Trek apart from other shows at the time was the fact that it was really the first "adult" sci-fi drama with a regular set of characters and the chemistry between Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly.

I'm not sure I know of any one that watches a military show or a cop show or a medical show because of how closely it resembles the organizations or practices that make up the background.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:14 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.