RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 145,549
Posts: 5,732,654
Members: 25,803
Currently online: 435
Newest member: sabanaaz


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 29 2013, 06:30 PM   #181
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post

It started out as one, relatively speaking, yes. I completely agree with you that that believability was abandoned by stages over the years in pursuit of profits and in the service of sentimentality (cf. my last post); TNG recovered a bit of it, subsequent shows frittered it away, and the loss of that believability was a big reason for ENTERPRISE's final flop.
They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.

For me, the reason Enterprise failed was it was boring and constantly covering ground the other shows had in the absolutely least interesting way possible.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:32 PM   #182
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: RIP Leonard Nimoy
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
It doesn't have to work within the realm of reality, cause it fits within the mandate of the monomyth.
I've always thought this was a lame excuse for George Lucas' bad writing, too, and Campbell something of an overrated charlatan as a scholar of "myth." So I can't really buy it.

In some fairness to NuTrek, though, the breaking-of-believability with Kirk didn't start with Abrams. Kirk-as-Gary Stu began to grow in the decade after the show's cancellation; by the time TNG rolled around he had been inflated into virtually the most important carbon-based lifeform of his time, rather than just the outstanding member of a prestigious "space navy" that he was originally conceived (Horatio Hornblower-style) to be. So, the Kirk Myth has been stupid for a long time. It's just gotten extra-stupid with NuTrek, where even the foundation of relative believability that Kirk at least started with has been stripped away.
There's never been any believability to Kirk or his crew. If there was he'd been stripped of command a dozen times over before the end of TOS. He's a superhero, in the same vain as pre-crisis Batman or even Hal Jordan; he's a larger than life character, always has been.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:35 PM   #183
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.
I did say relatively speaking. If Starfleet's behaviour in TOS was often subject to the distortions of script crunches and narrative convenience, it was streaks more credible as an attempt at believability than any televised SF that came before it. NuTrek has no such excuses.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:39 PM   #184
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: RIP Leonard Nimoy
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.
I did say relatively speaking. If Starfleet's behaviour in TOS was often subject to the distortions of script crunches and narrative convenience, it was streaks more credible as an attempt at believability than any televised SF that came before it. NuTrek has no such excuses.
Except scale: TOS had 79 episodes and it still made sacrifices in believability to serve the story. The movies have two hours, so in terms of scale they need to make more sacrifices to move the story along; they don't get the luxury of world building and a lot of detailed background info.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:39 PM   #185
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.
I did say relatively speaking. If Starfleet's behaviour in TOS was often subject to the distortions of script crunches and narrative convenience, it was streaks more credible as an attempt at believability than any televised SF that came before it. NuTrek has no such excuses.
Now you're trying to make excuses and moving the goal posts.

Do you know why I started watching Star Trek? Because it was fun to watch and didn't take itself too seriously. It's the exact same reason I like the Abrams films. The fun and adventure come first. I don't need it to be a training video on military promotion rules and practices. YMMV.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:41 PM   #186
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
He's a superhero, in the same vain as pre-crisis Batman or even Hal Jordan; he's a larger than life character, always has been.
"Larger-than-life" and "superhero" are different things. Kirk was later inflated into a superhero, but -- for all his improbable seductions and getting-saved-by-the-script-writer -- he is still a heroic character on the actual show, closer to Horatio Hornblower than Superman. He struggles with human issues, he sometimes fails or has to be saved by blind luck, he gets things wrong and muddles through. The Kirk-as-a-superhero business is a retcon that doesn't fit his portrayal on the show.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:42 PM   #187
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Now you're trying to make excuses and moving the goal posts.
I'm not moving any goalposts. The goalposts are firmly situated around believability, more of it being better, less of it being not-better, and writing getting and losing points for moving toward and away from them accordingly.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:43 PM   #188
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
The Kirk-as-a-superhero business is a retcon that doesn't fit his portrayal on the show.
Sure it does. Kirk always wins no matter how improbable the odds.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:44 PM   #189
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Now you're trying to make excuses and moving the goal posts.
I'm not moving any goalposts. The goalposts are firmly situated around believability, more of it being better, less of it being not-better, and writing getting and losing points for moving toward and away from them accordingly.
Then TOS should get 0 points because very little of it was actually believable and I say that as someone who ranks it as their favorite show of all time.
__________________
Self-appointed Knight of the Abrams Table! - Thanks Marsden!
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:45 PM   #190
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Sure it does. Kirk always wins no matter how improbable the odds.
Actually he doesn't. The mission portrayed in "Metamorphosis," for example, is strictly-speaking a failure. He has to be saved from himself by the aliens-of-the-week in "Errand of Mercy," and winds up embarrassed. He usually wins as befits the protagonist of an action show, but he is simply not the all-conquering demigod later myth inflates him into.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:46 PM   #191
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: RIP Leonard Nimoy
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
He's a superhero, in the same vain as pre-crisis Batman or even Hal Jordan; he's a larger than life character, always has been.
"Larger-than-life" and "superhero" are different things. Kirk was later inflated into a superhero, but -- for all his improbable seductions and getting-saved-by-the-script-writer -- he is still a heroic character on the actual show, closer to Horatio Hornblower than Superman. He struggles with human issues, he sometimes fails or has to be saved by blind luck, he gets things wrong and muddles through. The Kirk-as-a-superhero business is a retcon that doesn't fit his portrayal on the show.
The Hornblower nonsense is post TOS PR bullshit. TOS is a fucking western in space. Kirk is a gunslinger in a white hat that rides into town, woos the saloon girl with a heart of gold, guns down the bad guy or crooked town mayor, and rides off into the sunset. The Hornblower shit was just an attempt to hide what TOS really was.

And, yes even in TOS, Kirk was more super-hero than plain hero. Larger than life, heroic, and able to do shit that a common man couldn't. Maybe more western cowboy than crimefighter, but cut from the same cheesy comic-book cloth.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:46 PM   #192
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

All of Trek suspends belief as a military organization. There's no way these crews would stay together as long as they did. People are moved around often to ensure personnel get the most experience in a wide variety of jobs and with a number of different commands.

Some seem to be holding nuTrek to a standard that Trek has never held.

Again.
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:49 PM   #193
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Then TOS should get 0 points because very little of it was actually believable
Now, Bill, you're the one moving goalposts. I said writing gets points for moving toward believability, which Trek in fact did do. If you are telling me you think TOS Trek was on the same footing in that regard as Lost in Space, then with greatest respect, I would have to question your credibility as a judge of what "believability" actually means.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:51 PM   #194
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The Hornblower nonsense is post TOS PR bullshit.
Actually it's in the original series writer's bible. Nice try.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29 2013, 06:52 PM   #195
BigJake
Vice Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
Some seem to be holding nuTrek to a standard that Trek has never held
Not so. I've said quite clearly that NuTrek isn't the first to play silly-buggers with believability. Just that Trek at its best has tacked toward it, and at its worst has suffered for tacking away from it. NuTrek most certainly represents, to me, "at its worst;" I find it hard to think of a prior deformation of Starfleet behaviour that compares to miraculously promoting Kirk to the captain's chair from the rank of cadet.
__________________
"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, Jake's had the most... Haterade."
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.