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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 29 2013, 11:35 AM   #166
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Sulu was a qualified pilot, nothing says he wasn't trained.
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, as the copy of the script I can find online differs significantly from the final film, but wasn't there a line right after Sulu screwed up the Enterprises launch that said he'd been trained to fly shuttlecraft (And therefore, not Starships)?
Nope, there's nothing like that in the final film. www​.chakoteya.net is usually an excellent resource, providing transcripts of all the episodes and movies, but it would seem they're having some problems at the moment.
McCoy was a doctor before he even joined Starfleet. Scotty was dabbling in super-advanced transwarp technology six months before coming aboard. Spock graduated from the academy four years prior to the attack on Vulcan and was "one of [Starfleet's] most distinguished graduates". How they reached their posts were abnormal, but all were qualified.
Those three were qualified, yes. Any one of them would make perfect sense as an exception to the rule, coincidence, whatever. Except for the fact that Scotty apparently has enemies high up who don't want him to succeed. But hey, maybe they forgot about him or whatever. All three of them together, however, achieving their positions in such strange circumstances sets up a story which is fairly hard to believe to begin with - and becomes impossible to believe on Kirk's fantastic promotion.

In terms of the story, maybe so. In terms of proving to Starfleet command he was clearly ready to take full control of a starship? Lucking your way to the top is pretty much the exact opposite of proving yourself.
Be he still proved himself once he was there. Would Earth and the Federation still be there if somone else commanded the Enterprise? A dodgy way to get there, sure. But the right man for the job.
The Enterprise D was in a perpetual war with the Klingons. The Narada was an isolated incident, no different than a thousand other isolated incidents where starships or even entire colonies were destroyed by random alien of the week. Starfleet has never reacted to any of those incidents by changing its fundamental rules of operation.
A war which sprung from one incident with the Enterprise-C at Narendra III. The Butterfly Effect in action.

See also the Borg encounter in "Q Who" which led to Starfleet Prime building their first warships, the Defiant-class and Peometheus-class. One could also argue that the TMP refit and Excelsior class were responses to the many threats faced in The Original Series, like the Doomsday Machine.

Remember also that those "random alien of the week" attacks from TOS havent (yet?) happened in this timeline, so they're a non-factor. The first time something like that happens (i.e. the Narada's appearance) causes the biggest reaction.
[Quote]

Sure. But this is still not even remotely extraordinary. Isn't Kirk supposed to be off the charts, most promising cadet ever? Where is the proof of that?
"Four years? I'll do it in three." - and he was taking his Kobayashi Maru test in his third year. This after we learned in the Shipyard Bar that Kirk's aptitude tests were "off the charts" and he was "genius-level"

I've noticed another poster disputes that one. I can't remember specifically, myself, and the copy of the script I'm looking at doesn't really specify who came up with the plan at all - or if there even actually was a plan and not just dumb luck and improvisation.

This isn't an example of thinking, strategy or leadership at all.

Proving he's not a douche, but not proving he's in any way brilliant or exceptional.

Not sure if the final version was exactly the same, but the script for this is:

" SCOTTY (last desperate thought)
IF WE EJECT THE CORE AND DETONATE, THE BLAST COULD BE STRONG ENOUGH TO PUSH US AWAY BUT I CAN'T PROMISE ANYTHING!

KIRK
DO IT DO IT DO IT!"

So, Scotty got a lucky hunch at the last second and Kirk grasped at the only straw available to save his ship. Not exactly a well considered decision to take a chance on a theory.
Wait, isn't that how 90% of Trek problens are dealt with? Something very similar happened in Insurrection too, where Geordi ejected the core to blast the Enterprise away from a similar anomaly. Think of all those times Spock calculated impossible odds, too.
After going through all these examples, I still don't see any real thinking or planning, and only a very little leadership. What Kirk shows, above all, in this film is a lot of courage, a strong moral compass and an incredibly accurate gut feeling.
Wasn't it Kirk and Spock's plan to beam to Nero's ship, disable it and take the "black hole device" (Spock Prime's ship)? Sounds like they carried that out pretty well. It's the nature of these movies that they don't often have time to plan their actions. Immediate problems requiring immediate solutions.
Which makes him a great hero, but doesn't do anything at all to set him apart from the rest of Starfleet as some extraordinary officer whose potential is so wonderful that he must be promoted straight to captain.

The internal logic of how the Federation and Starfleet have always worked. Over four shows and ten movies we've seen far more spectacular heroics than Kirk's one day command of the Enterprise in ST09, several times over, and it's never resulted in anything even close to the ridiculous promotion he is rewarded with.

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I think the militarization of Section 31 and it exploring near space which had them come in contact with Khan and his people is one such example of how this universe's priorities are quite different than those of the Prime Timeline.
The militarization of section 31 was a response to the attack on Vulcan and Earth. Kirk's promotion happened what, two days after those events took place? Starfleet reassessed it's entire way of doing business that fast? And did so in a way that makes it less militarized, allowing an almost entirely unproven officer to take control of the most important asset in the fleet?
A quarter-century after the Kelvin attack at which point the timelines diverged. Again, the butterfly effect. Starfleet has a different boss in this timeline (Admiral Marcus instead of Nogura), they operate much larger ships. Things are not the same, and what you knew of classic Trek cannot be counted upon. Section 31-prime (in the 24th century, at least) had no headquarters, they were people operating in the shadows, manipulating. The AU version had a gigantic base beneath London where they were arming for war with the Klingons.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:52 AM   #167
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

All I know is that were likely a few people on the Kelvin who never became Admirals, Captains and First Officers in the new timeline.

The first step in a radically different Starfleet.
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Old September 29 2013, 12:29 PM   #168
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, as the copy of the script I can find online differs significantly from the final film, but wasn't there a line right after Sulu screwed up the Enterprises launch that said he'd been trained to fly shuttlecraft (And therefore, not Starships)?
Nope, there's nothing like that in the final film. www​.chakoteya.net is usually an excellent resource, providing transcripts of all the episodes and movies, but it would seem they're having some problems at the moment.
Then I withdraw the idea of Sulu's strange unsuitability. I must have misheard something in that scene.


Be he still proved himself once he was there. Would Earth and the Federation still be there if somone else commanded the Enterprise? A dodgy way to get there, sure. But the right man for the job.
He proved himself a great action hero. He did not prove himself an ultra-special best leader/strategist ever who must obviously be promoted to the height of responsibility without any further training or experience.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I'm not saying Kirk is an idiot. I'm not saying he shows no special qualities whatsoever. I'm not even saying that he didn't demonstrate any of the qualities that a good captain should have. But he certainly did not demonstrate all of the qualities a good captain should have, and the qualities he did exhibit do not back up the film's very determined (but entirely offscreen) narrative of him being an ultra intelligent golden boy.

A war which sprung from one incident with the Enterprise-C at Narendra III. The Butterfly Effect in action.
That's not the Butterfly Effect. It's direct cause and effect. The incident with the Enterprise C was a highly charged encounter involving large powers with a very long history of antagonizing each other. It was a very natural turning point in history.

The destruction of the Kelvin was an almost completely random event, with no known context (until after the attack on Vulcan) and not even any known enemy (since the Narada disappeared from history for 25 years). Sure, somewhere some long term strategists would probably be wetting their pants over it, but it would not have that large an effect on the Federation in general.

See also the Borg encounter in "Q Who" which led to Starfleet Prime building their first warships, the Defiant-class and Peometheus-class. One could also argue that the TMP refit and Excelsior class were responses to the many threats faced in The Original Series, like the Doomsday Machine.
Comparing an entire alien race with a repeatedly demonstrated obsession with destroying the Federation to one ship that showed no real motive or intention to continue its destruction for decades is a bit hyperbolic. Especially considering the Narada still doesn't seem to really match the terrifying unbeatableness of real Borg technology.

And I don't see any reason to suspect the Enterprise refits or the excelsior class were initiated for any reason other than normal technological progress.

Remember also that those "random alien of the week" attacks from TOS havent (yet?) happened in this timeline, so they're a non-factor. The first time something like that happens (i.e. the Narada's appearance) causes the biggest reaction.
How does it make any sense to say Starfleet has never had an incident of this nature in 100 years of exploration? Space in the Star Trek universe is dangerous. It's just as dangerous in every series, including Enterprise, which incidentally, according to the on screen logic of ST09, remains fully canon even in the new universe. Captain Archer dealt with a temporal cold war (bizarre future technology) and had to trek into a completely unknown region of space to stop a completely random alien race from destroying earth out of fear (it was fear, wasn't it? Long time since I've seen enterprise).

And yet during his lifetime, the Federation was created, according to canon, with all the same high ideals we know it for. And I'm supposed to believe a nation founded in this kind of environment, which must have grown in this same kind of environment - or did space conviently become far less dangerous for the hundred years between enterprise and st09? - that this same nation is going to start jumping at shadows every time a ship is destroyed?

Wait, isn't that how 90% of Trek problens are dealt with? Something very similar happened in Insurrection too, where Geordi ejected the core to blast the Enterprise away from a similar anomaly. Think of all those times Spock calculated impossible odds, too.
The difference is - those films didn't try to claim that these actions were so amazingly outstanding that Geordi or Spock should be immediately promoted to Admiral and placed in charge of the entire fleet.

Wasn't it Kirk and Spock's plan to beam to Nero's ship, disable it and take the "black hole device" (Spock Prime's ship)? Sounds like they carried that out pretty well. It's the nature of these movies that they don't often have time to plan their actions. Immediate problems requiring immediate solutions.
And that would be great, if the immediate results of the plan were the only relevant concern. But the way the story is written introduces more problems than solutions by trying to pretend Kirk was so exceptional, yet failing to ever present any real proof of that.

The militarization of section 31 was a response to the attack on Vulcan and Earth. Kirk's promotion happened what, two days after those events took place? Starfleet reassessed it's entire way of doing business that fast? And did so in a way that makes it less militarized, allowing an almost entirely unproven officer to take control of the most important asset in the fleet?
A quarter-century after the Kelvin attack at which point the timelines diverged. Again, the butterfly effect. Starfleet has a different boss in this timeline (Admiral Marcus instead of Nogura), they operate much larger ships. Things are not the same, and what you knew of classic Trek cannot be counted upon. Section 31-prime (in the 24th century, at least) had no headquarters, they were people operating in the shadows, manipulating. The AU version had a gigantic base beneath London where they were arming for war with the Klingons.
All makes sense, no problem with that. But none of those things touch on something like relaxing promotion policies to such an absurd degree - the promotion of competent officers being one of the most important core processes/protocols that starfleet has. Right up there with the Prime Directive (which STID confirms is still in place, entirely unchanged, even after Vulcan). This isn't a question of putting slightly more emphasis on starship design or having less trust in the Klingons. Those kinds of things are constantly subject to the will of whoever happens to be in charge, and therefore easily changeable by the butterfly effects of the Kelvin attack.

But the proper procedures for promoting officers go to the very core of what Starfleet is. Sure, they can be altered in all kinds of minor or medium details, but a few different people in powerful positions cannot magically turn the Federation as we know it into a society where major success is instantly rewarded with starship command, without any critical review of the actual actions involved, or any proof of sufficient experience.

And what's even more important: that kind of promotion culture clearly doesn't exist in the films, anyway. Especially when you take into account STID. The entire story sets up Kirk's case as the mother of all exceptions. So how does it make sense that the Kelvin attack changed the way starfleet promotes this one guy, and no one else?

And again - another question that has yet to be answered - how does it make sense that an increasingly militaristic starfleet taking shape in response to the Kelvin attack would result in such an incredibly lax promotion policy?
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Old September 29 2013, 02:15 PM   #169
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The real result of theses new movies has yet to be fully seen. Will new fans who are unfamiliar with Trek's past explore the old series and say "Y'know, this is much better than the movies" or will they turn their back on 40+ years for Hollywood glitz and action?
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Old September 29 2013, 03:19 PM   #170
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Kirk had already got himself to the point of being a part of the graduating year 3 years after starting, as he promised Pike which must be pretty exceptional.

His rise to the big chair is partly by chance of being in the right place at the right time and a big part due to Pike rolling the dice at making him First Officer with little or no reason.

After saving Earth, saving Pike and likely getting a glowing report from all involved as I can imagine a newly promoted Admiral Pike pulled a few strings to see how the kid does... this may not be the most realistic but some would argue neither is discussing the reality of a TV show or movie which involves Warp Drive, Transporters etc.
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Old September 29 2013, 03:54 PM   #171
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

mythme wrote: View Post
The real result of theses new movies has yet to be fully seen. Will new fans who are unfamiliar with Trek's past explore the old series and say "Y'know, this is much better than the movies" or will they turn their back on 40+ years for Hollywood glitz and action?
Why not both, like so many have done?

Besides, Trek is not just classic/new. It's also TOS/TAS/TOS Movies/TNG/DS9/VOY/TNG Movies/ENT. Fans can split that in a great many ways.
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Old September 29 2013, 04:08 PM   #172
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

mythme wrote: View Post
The real result of theses new movies has yet to be fully seen. Will new fans who are unfamiliar with Trek's past explore the old series...
CBS reported that they expected TOS DVD and Blu-Ray boxed sets to sell in renewed large quantities after the 2009 film. What happened was that there was a noticeable spike in sales of all Star Trek boxed sets: TOS, TAS, the movies, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT!
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Old September 29 2013, 04:11 PM   #173
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
mythme wrote: View Post
The real result of theses new movies has yet to be fully seen. Will new fans who are unfamiliar with Trek's past explore the old series...
CBS reported that they expected TOS DVD and Blu-Ray boxed sets to sell in renewed large quantities after the 2009 film. What happened was that there was a noticeable spike in sales of all Star Trek boxed sets: TOS, TAS, the movies, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT!
I confess I am guilty of being one of these buyers. While waiting for STiD to arrive on home video I got myself all three seasons of TOS on Blu-ray. Such an excellent purchase!
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Old September 29 2013, 04:15 PM   #174
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
3. Cadet to Captain? - This would never happen. I don't care if you saved the United States from an Alien invasion, they are not gonna give you a Captain Rank with their most advanced Destroyer or Submarine.
A couple of hundred years ago you could buy and sell your commission. Applying modern methodology for to a fictional future is narrow-minded at best.
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Old September 29 2013, 05:19 PM   #175
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Section 31-prime (in the 24th century, at least) had no headquarters, they were people operating in the shadows, manipulating. The AU version had a gigantic base beneath London where they were arming for war with the Klingons.
And to add - The film makers gave us a big hint that Section 31 became militarized after the Kelvin attack - their secret facility was under the Kelvin Memorial Archive.
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Old September 29 2013, 05:38 PM   #176
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Squiggy wrote: View Post
A couple of hundred years ago you could buy and sell your commission. Applying modern methodology for to a fictional future is narrow-minded at best.
Actually, one of the best innovations of the original Trek was the commitment to making the human institutions involved believable to a contemporary audience. It was permissible to extrapolate, but the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say "Well, it's science fiction." It was one of many smart Trek ideas that helped differentiate the show from the pure camp that went before it and that the NuTrek version of the franchise has forgotten.

(I don't think it's really possible to come up with even a purely sci-fi version of Starfleet's behaviour in NuTrek that makes a lick of sense, either. But that's a different question.)
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Old September 29 2013, 06:08 PM   #177
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
Squiggy wrote: View Post
A couple of hundred years ago you could buy and sell your commission. Applying modern methodology for to a fictional future is narrow-minded at best.
Actually, one of the best innovations of the original Trek was the commitment to making the human institutions involved believable to a contemporary audience. It was permissible to extrapolate, but the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say "Well, it's science fiction." It was one of many smart Trek ideas that helped differentiate the show from the pure camp that went before it and that the NuTrek version of the franchise has forgotten.

(For that matter, I don't think it's really possible to come up with even a purely sci-fi version of Starfleet's behaviour in NuTrek that makes a lick of sense, either. But that's a different question.)
Actually Kirk's arc so far is pretty much standard issue Joseph Campbell monomyth writing. So Starfleet's actions fit well within the guidelines of the "Hero's Journey". It doesn't have to work within the realm of reality, cause it fits within the mandate of the monomyth.
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Old September 29 2013, 06:20 PM   #178
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post

Actually, one of the best innovations of the original Trek was the commitment to making the human institutions involved believable to a contemporary audience. It was permissible to extrapolate, but the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say "Well, it's science fiction."
Because Starfleet has always been a believable institution in relation to how the modern military operates. From the TOS crew serving together for thirty years, to the TNG guys working together for fifteen years straight, to officers being able to reject promotions (especially during times when Starfleet needs a certain type of officer), to officers being able to do whatever they want without any regard for regulations and no repercussions when breaking them and Kirk going from Captain to Admiral to Captain to Admiral to Captain.

Starfleet has always been bent whichever way the story needs.
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Old September 29 2013, 06:22 PM   #179
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
It doesn't have to work within the realm of reality, cause it fits within the mandate of the monomyth.
I've always thought this was a lame excuse for George Lucas' bad writing, too, and Campbell something of an overrated charlatan as a scholar of "myth." So I can't really buy it.

In some fairness to NuTrek, though, the breaking-of-believability with Kirk didn't start with Abrams. Kirk-as-Gary Stu began to grow in the decade after the show's cancellation; by the time TNG rolled around he had been inflated into virtually the most important carbon-based lifeform of his time, rather than just the outstanding member of a prestigious "space navy" that he was originally conceived (Horatio Hornblower-style) to be. So, the Kirk Myth has been stupid for a long time. It's just gotten extra-stupid with NuTrek, where even the foundation of relative believability that Kirk at least started with has been stripped away.
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Old September 29 2013, 06:26 PM   #180
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Because Starfleet has always been a believable institution in relation to how the modern military operates.
It started out as one, relatively speaking, yes. I completely agree with you that that believability was abandoned by stages over the years in pursuit of profits and in the service of sentimentality (cf. my last post); TNG recovered a bit of it, subsequent shows frittered it away, and the loss of that believability was a big reason for ENTERPRISE's final flop. Believability has not always been a trait of Trek, but the lack of it has always been a mark of bad Trek.
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