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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 28 2013, 09:57 AM   #136
grendelsbayne
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Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
All irrelevant to my point. Rogers goes from propaganda tool to leader of men after one success. (he disobeys orders to do so). Rogers doesn't need exactly the same responsibility as Kirk or the same background to draw a comparison about a jump in rank.

The jump in rank for Kirk is actually my biggest beef with the film. But I understand it.
Oh, I understand why they did it. But, as another poster said, that still doesn't make it anymore believable.

As for Cap, I simply don't see the two situations as truly comparable, because the jump in responsibility - to me - is several orders of magnitude larger for Kirk, and the abilities he'd proven himself to have were neither extremely urgently needed, nor impossible to find in other officers, whereas the abilities Captain America demonstrated were both.

Franklin wrote: View Post
Kirk had to be in the captain's chair at the end of the movie. The problem was how to get him there in the least implausible manner. Nothing was going to be perfect or completely believable. Let's face it, everyone's rise in status was meteoric except perhaps Spock's, who was Pike's first officer to begin with.

At least in STID, they showed that Kirk was not ready for the chair. Give them credit for that.
That's true, and the whole thing taken together is actually my biggest problem with the story (aside from Nero) - not just Kirk. The discussion around Kirk is more extreme because he is the most ridiculous outlier, but the others' rise in position is fairly weird as well. The only one I really believed was Uhura, since she was flat-out stated to be a communications prodigy.

But how exactly did McCoy end up the second highest ranking doctor when he hadn't even been in space yet? And while I get that you have to make do with what you have in a crisis, how does Sulu become the permanent helmsman of the enterprise when he hasn't even trained to fly a full sized starship? Not to mention Scotty going from some kind of apparent exile to chief engineer of the flagship with seemingly no difficulty...

As for giving them props for acknowledging his inexperience in STiD - I really wanted to. When I first saw it, I for a few brief moments thought 'This is going to redeem that whole mess'. But they didn't do anything with it whatsoever. There was five minutes of general angst and then BAM, Pike's dead, Spock's back on board and off we go, nobody pay any attention to that completely unresolved storyline behind the curtain. Overall, I do actually like STiD. But nothing in it makes up for the bizarre storyline in ST09.

Opus wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If the Federation were at war, losing captains everyday and desperately in need of new ones who clearly at least have the talent if not the experience - then, yes, I would believe it.
Starfleet lost a number of captains, officers and ships over Vulcan confronting Nero in ST09.

So... I can believe it.
They also lost an equal number of ships, so... that basically means there is no shortage of captains at all. Obviously the Enterprise wasn't built with the intention of handing it over to Lt. Kirk who hasn't graduated the academy yet. There must have been an experienced officer somewhere in line for the job.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
And, if that wasn't good enough for the writers, then they should have just sucked it up and started Kirk with a higher rank than 'Cadet on Academic Suspension', no matter how desperate they were to show his Kobayashi Maru test.
"Cadet" is not a rank. According to screens in the 2009 movie, Kirk was already a lieutenant. (And so was Saavik in ST II.)
And skipping three full ranks (Or is it four? Are they lieutenants, or lieutenant JGs?) is still unprecedented in Starfleet history. Despite the fact that a number of starfleet officers have saved entire worlds on a regular basis.

Last edited by M'Sharak; September 28 2013 at 06:10 PM. Reason: to merge quadruple post
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Old September 28 2013, 11:43 AM   #137
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Kirk had to be in the captain's chair at the end of the movie. The problem was how to get him there in the least implausible manner. Nothing was going to be perfect or completely believable. Let's face it, everyone's rise in status was meteoric except perhaps Spock's, who was Pike's first officer to begin with.

At least in STID, they showed that Kirk was not ready for the chair. Give them credit for that.
That's true, and the whole thing taken together is actually my biggest problem with the story (aside from Nero) - not just Kirk. The discussion around Kirk is more extreme because he is the most ridiculous outlier, but the others' rise in position is fairly weird as well. The only one I really believed was Uhura, since she was flat-out stated to be a communications prodigy.

But how exactly did McCoy end up the second highest ranking doctor when he hadn't even been in space yet? And while I get that you have to make do with what you have in a crisis, how does Sulu become the permanent helmsman of the enterprise when he hasn't even trained to fly a full sized starship? Not to mention Scotty going from some kind of apparent exile to chief engineer of the flagship with seemingly no difficulty...
Because "You are the best and brightest and have truly earned this job through years of exemplary performance" is dull even once, let alone seven times. Give me the colourful origin stories any day.
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Old September 28 2013, 11:55 AM   #138
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Kirk had to be in the captain's chair at the end of the movie. The problem was how to get him there in the least implausible manner. Nothing was going to be perfect or completely believable. Let's face it, everyone's rise in status was meteoric except perhaps Spock's, who was Pike's first officer to begin with.

At least in STID, they showed that Kirk was not ready for the chair. Give them credit for that.
That's true, and the whole thing taken together is actually my biggest problem with the story (aside from Nero) - not just Kirk. The discussion around Kirk is more extreme because he is the most ridiculous outlier, but the others' rise in position is fairly weird as well. The only one I really believed was Uhura, since she was flat-out stated to be a communications prodigy.

But how exactly did McCoy end up the second highest ranking doctor when he hadn't even been in space yet? And while I get that you have to make do with what you have in a crisis, how does Sulu become the permanent helmsman of the enterprise when he hasn't even trained to fly a full sized starship? Not to mention Scotty going from some kind of apparent exile to chief engineer of the flagship with seemingly no difficulty...
Because "You are the best and brightest and have truly earned this job through years of exemplary performance" is dull even once, let alone seven times. Give me the colourful origin stories any day.
That is your argument? You don't even deny grendelsbayne's argument regarding the ridiculousness of the situation. You merely say you have no problem with the situation being ridiculous.

Personally, I would have preferred a movie that doesn't require turning my brain off.
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Old September 28 2013, 02:08 PM   #139
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
And skipping three full ranks (Or is it four? Are they lieutenants, or lieutenant JGs?) is still unprecedented in Starfleet history.
As far as you know.
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Old September 28 2013, 04:38 PM   #140
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
All irrelevant to my point. Rogers goes from propaganda tool to leader of men after one success. (he disobeys orders to do so). Rogers doesn't need exactly the same responsibility as Kirk or the same background to draw a comparison about a jump in rank.

The jump in rank for Kirk is actually my biggest beef with the film. But I understand it.
Oh, I understand why they did it. But, as another poster said, that still doesn't make it anymore believable.

As for Cap, I simply don't see the two situations as truly comparable, because the jump in responsibility - to me - is several orders of magnitude larger for Kirk, and the abilities he'd proven himself to have were neither extremely urgently needed, nor impossible to find in other officers, whereas the abilities Captain America demonstrated were both.
But Cap's abilities were merely physical. He was stronger and faster than most soldiers. That doesn't make him a leader or deserving a jump in rank of three to twelve (if you count enlisted ranks) spots. Kirk on the other hand was shown to be a thinker, though very unorthodox one. Kirk had qualities Pike felt was lacking in Starfleet and no doubt pushed for Kirk to get the promotion and the command.

All I see is two characters who are given a jump in rank an responsibility after performing a heroic act. That similar enough to site a parallel.

No it's not believable in real life. In an action adventure film it meets certain needs and expectations.
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Old September 28 2013, 04:48 PM   #141
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

That's true, and the whole thing taken together is actually my biggest problem with the story (aside from Nero) - not just Kirk. The discussion around Kirk is more extreme because he is the most ridiculous outlier, but the others' rise in position is fairly weird as well. The only one I really believed was Uhura, since she was flat-out stated to be a communications prodigy.

But how exactly did McCoy end up the second highest ranking doctor when he hadn't even been in space yet? And while I get that you have to make do with what you have in a crisis, how does Sulu become the permanent helmsman of the enterprise when he hasn't even trained to fly a full sized starship? Not to mention Scotty going from some kind of apparent exile to chief engineer of the flagship with seemingly no difficulty...
Because "You are the best and brightest and have truly earned this job through years of exemplary performance" is dull even once, let alone seven times. Give me the colourful origin stories any day.
That is your argument? You don't even deny grendelsbayne's argument regarding the ridiculousness of the situation. You merely say you have no problem with the situation being ridiculous.

Personally, I would have preferred a movie that doesn't require turning my brain off.
You must watch very few movies, then. The vast bulk of films ever made require viewers to "turn off their brains" in some fashion, even those that sometimes require viewers to engage parts of their brains they don't use as often as they might like (stories with complicated plots, images and situations fraught with multiple layers of symbolism and so on). Movie logic trumps real life logic in the overwhelming majority (conservatively, I'd estimate 95%) of all feature films ever made, anywhere, since their inception.

You don't have to like it (I know many people who don't like movies precisely because "movie logic" doesn't match "real life logic", but they simply don't watch many movies).

My favourite film director is Alfred Hitchcock. I have seen and own about 80% of his considerable output (the rest is divided into titles I've not been able to get yet and a few that are lost). Even his least effective efforts are better, to me, than about 80% of the films I've seen. But I do not hold his films as examples that lack in implausible situations. Nevertheless, they are quite enjoyable and his best films are considered masterpieces of filmmaking.

I'm not suggesting Abrams is on par with Hitchcock (some may feel he is--that's neither here nor there). Nor am I suggesting that his Trek films are immune from criticism (no film is). However, "implausible circumstances", for any film (let alone a Trek film), is rarely an effective criticism if the baseline is "real world logic". Movies are rarely meant to be "as real as real life" and even among those that are meant to be so, the success rate is rather low.
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Old September 28 2013, 05:22 PM   #142
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ovation

1 For certain movies - that don't take themselves seriously, that clearly intend to present absurd scenarios, etc -, lack of logic is not a disadvantage.
For movies that do aspire to be coherent, plot-holes, character stupidity, etc are a minus. Star trek 2009 is in this latter category.

2 I did not say I dislike star trek 2009. Overall, I liked it.
But plot-holes - especially blatant ones, such as the one commented on in this thread - decreased the quality of the movie; it would have been of a clearly superior quality were they missing.
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Old September 28 2013, 05:30 PM   #143
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Fair enough. While I quoted your post, I should probably have made it clearer that I was addressing a wider issue that I've noticed of late (not only here at TrekBBS)--the notion that a film that doesn't adhere to "real life logic" is somehow unworthy of a viewer's time. That's a completely unfair criticism of film. It is narrowly fair in the sense of an individual choosing to not watch films because the lack of real life logic is too bothersome. But it is not a fair standard to which films should be held.
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Old September 28 2013, 06:09 PM   #144
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
All irrelevant to my point. Rogers goes from propaganda tool to leader of men after one success. (he disobeys orders to do so). Rogers doesn't need exactly the same responsibility as Kirk or the same background to draw a comparison about a jump in rank.

The jump in rank for Kirk is actually my biggest beef with the film. But I understand it.
Oh, I understand why they did it. But, as another poster said, that still doesn't make it anymore believable.

As for Cap, I simply don't see the two situations as truly comparable, because the jump in responsibility - to me - is several orders of magnitude larger for Kirk, and the abilities he'd proven himself to have were neither extremely urgently needed, nor impossible to find in other officers, whereas the abilities Captain America demonstrated were both.
One...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Kirk had to be in the captain's chair at the end of the movie. The problem was how to get him there in the least implausible manner. Nothing was going to be perfect or completely believable. Let's face it, everyone's rise in status was meteoric except perhaps Spock's, who was Pike's first officer to begin with.

At least in STID, they showed that Kirk was not ready for the chair. Give them credit for that.
That's true, and the whole thing taken together is actually my biggest problem with the story (aside from Nero) - not just Kirk. The discussion around Kirk is more extreme because he is the most ridiculous outlier, but the others' rise in position is fairly weird as well. The only one I really believed was Uhura, since she was flat-out stated to be a communications prodigy.

But how exactly did McCoy end up the second highest ranking doctor when he hadn't even been in space yet? And while I get that you have to make do with what you have in a crisis, how does Sulu become the permanent helmsman of the enterprise when he hasn't even trained to fly a full sized starship? Not to mention Scotty going from some kind of apparent exile to chief engineer of the flagship with seemingly no difficulty...

As for giving them props for acknowledging his inexperience in STiD - I really wanted to. When I first saw it, I for a few brief moments thought 'This is going to redeem that whole mess'. But they didn't do anything with it whatsoever. There was five minutes of general angst and then BAM, Pike's dead, Spock's back on board and off we go, nobody pay any attention to that completely unresolved storyline behind the curtain. Overall, I do actually like STiD. But nothing in it makes up for the bizarre storyline in ST09.
two...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Opus wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If the Federation were at war, losing captains everyday and desperately in need of new ones who clearly at least have the talent if not the experience - then, yes, I would believe it.
Starfleet lost a number of captains, officers and ships over Vulcan confronting Nero in ST09.

So... I can believe it.
They also lost an equal number of ships, so... that basically means there is no shortage of captains at all. Obviously the Enterprise wasn't built with the intention of handing it over to Lt. Kirk who hasn't graduated the academy yet. There must have been an experienced officer somewhere in line for the job.
three...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
And, if that wasn't good enough for the writers, then they should have just sucked it up and started Kirk with a higher rank than 'Cadet on Academic Suspension', no matter how desperate they were to show his Kobayashi Maru test.
"Cadet" is not a rank. According to screens in the 2009 movie, Kirk was already a lieutenant. (And so was Saavik in ST II.)
And skipping three full ranks (Or is it four? Are they lieutenants, or lieutenant JGs?) is still unprecedented in Starfleet history. Despite the fact that a number of starfleet officers have saved entire worlds on a regular basis.
four in a row. Should be no more than two consecutive posts in any thread.

For responding to several posts at the same time, you can click the Multi-Quote [ ] button on each of the posts and then click the Quote or Post Reply button to put all of your replies in one post. I will merge these for you.
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Old September 28 2013, 07:41 PM   #145
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Set Harth wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
And skipping three full ranks (Or is it four? Are they lieutenants, or lieutenant JGs?) is still unprecedented in Starfleet history.
As far as you know.
As far as we know based on 24 seasons of television and 10 films following four different crews.

If ST09 was a hard reboot, you might have a point, but the ptb at Paramount specifically didn't want that. They chose to make it a part of the exact same world, just with a slightly different past. So therefore, Starfleet should still be pretty much the same as it always has been. And, despite a whole lot of thrilling heroics - we haven't seen that many promotions at all, let alone promotions of such ridiculous proportions.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But Cap's abilities were merely physical. He was stronger and faster than most soldiers. That doesn't make him a leader or deserving a jump in rank of three to twelve (if you count enlisted ranks) spots.
His heroic act showed him capable of the kind of leadership needed for the missions he was running, which was a very specific type of mission. And his physical abilities were both unique and key to the success of those missions, which is why he was legitimately irreplacable within the logic of that story.

Kirk on the other hand was shown to be a thinker, though very unorthodox one. Kirk had qualities Pike felt was lacking in Starfleet and no doubt pushed for Kirk to get the promotion and the command.
Honestly, I don't see too much in the way of real thinking going on in Kirk's character in ST09. They seem, to me, to have taken him to the rather extreme end of Kirk's penchant for solving problems by hitting things and being generally abrasive. The only moment that stands out to me at all, is when he stopped the ship because he realized the Vulcan distress signal was a trap. But the fact that he realized that and not someone else merely proves he's not a complete moron, not that he's in any way brilliant or insightful. Every other character would have come to the same conclusion, except that the plot conveniently prevented anyone else from having all the necessary information.

So tell me, then, what specific actions did Kirk take while in command that proved in any way he was fully ready for command leadership of a starship?

Because we all know he saved earth, but we also know that he couldn't have *not* saved earth. That's just what the movie is about. And I don't see that many other reasons for starfleet to suddenly decide he's a wunderkind.

All I see is two characters who are given a jump in rank an responsibility after performing a heroic act. That similar enough to site a parallel.
The problem is you're looking at them purely in terms of plot generalities while I'm talking about the internal logic of the story. Captain American more or less stays within the bounds of its own internal logic. ST09, when understood as a continuation of the same Starfleet/Federation we've always known, doesn't even try to.

No it's not believable in real life. In an action adventure film it meets certain needs and expectations.
As stated, I'm not comparing it to real life. I'm comparing to the known internal logic of the Federation and Starfleet.

Ovation wrote: View Post
"implausible circumstances", for any film (let alone a Trek film), is rarely an effective criticism if the baseline is "real world logic". Movies are rarely meant to be "as real as real life" and even among those that are meant to be so, the success rate is rather low.
I'm not using "real world logic" as the baseline for my criticism. If I were, I'd be asking why the hell every single fully manned ship is conveniently off somewhere leaving nothing but cadets to save the world. But that situation is very well established as a time honored tradition within the internal logic of any Star Trek story. Promoting a lt. with a patchy record straight to captain of the flagship because he saved one planet isn't. Despite the fact the ST characters have saved planets quite often.

ETA: Sorry for having too many posts - I didn't see that last message until after responding to these and I can't seem to find the delete button. I'll use the multi-quote button in the future.

Last edited by M'Sharak; September 28 2013 at 08:28 PM. Reason: merging three posts
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Old September 28 2013, 08:04 PM   #146
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The "known internal logic" of the Federation and Starfleet no longer applied after the Narada arrived in 2233. There are broad similarities, of course, but after a quarter century deviation from that point, all sorts of differences were bound to emerge. There are other reasons to criticize the swift promotion of Kirk, but "known internal logic", based on what went on in the "prime timeline", is not especially compelling as an argument.
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Old September 28 2013, 08:10 PM   #147
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ovation wrote: View Post
The "known internal logic" of the Federation and Starfleet no longer applied after the Narada arrived in 2233. There are broad similarities, of course, but after a quarter century deviation from that point, all sorts of differences were bound to emerge. There are other reasons to criticize the swift promotion of Kirk, but "known internal logic", based on what went on in the "prime timeline", is not especially compelling as an argument.
Nonsense. The known internal logic of the shows stayed mostly the same all the way in to the late 24th century and beyond, and there's no reason to think the arrival of 1 insane romulan and the passage of a measley 25 years would suddenly change the way everyone has run things for almost a century already.
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Old September 28 2013, 08:27 PM   #148
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

ETA: Sorry for having too many posts - I didn't see that last message until after responding to these and I can't seem to find the delete button. I'll use the multi-quote button in the future.
No worries. I'll get this one.
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Old September 28 2013, 08:31 PM   #149
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post

Kirk didn't defeat Nero. Nero was betrayed by the plot.
Well, then by that logic Riker and Data didn't defeat the Borg, the plot did.

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

Nonsense. The known internal logic of the shows stayed mostly the same all the way in to the late 24th century and beyond, and there's no reason to think the arrival of 1 insane romulan and the passage of a measley 25 years would suddenly change the way everyone has run things for almost a century already.
Probably not "non-sense". Starfleet was confronted with something they had never seen before and it crushed one of their ships. Over the next few years, all it would take would be for a few promotions to go differently than they did in the Prime timeline and you would have an organization that would have far different priorities.
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Old September 28 2013, 08:40 PM   #150
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post

Kirk didn't defeat Nero. Nero was betrayed by the plot.
Well, then by that logic Riker and Data didn't defeat the Borg, the plot did.

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

Nonsense. The known internal logic of the shows stayed mostly the same all the way in to the late 24th century and beyond, and there's no reason to think the arrival of 1 insane romulan and the passage of a measley 25 years would suddenly change the way everyone has run things for almost a century already.
Probably not "non-sense". Starfleet was confronted with something they had never seen before and it crushed one of their ships. Over the next few years, all it would take would be for a few promotions to go differently than they did in the Prime timeline and you would have an organization that would have far different priorities.
Exactly.
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