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Old September 23 2013, 05:46 AM   #46
R. Star
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Not to mention all the nuclear waste we've buried in lead lined containers.
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Old September 23 2013, 05:49 AM   #47
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Voth descending from dinosaurs makes as much sense as humans evolving into lizards! That's just Voyager's garbage science!
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Old September 23 2013, 06:16 AM   #48
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Chernobyl! See, now that's a good example. And yet, even Chernobyl won't leave a scar that lasts 50 million years. Sure, the half-life of uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, but uranium does react with the environment, too, and will eventually be diluted in the environment across thousands of years. Chernobyl won't be severely radioactive 50 million years from now.
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Old September 23 2013, 08:39 AM   #49
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Dream wrote: View Post
Humans descending from dinosaurs makes as much sense as humans evolving into lizards! That's just Voyager's garbage science!
The episode never said that Humans evolved from dinosaurs. It said the Voth evolved from dinosaurs.
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Old September 23 2013, 08:44 AM   #50
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Chernobyl! See, now that's a good example. And yet, even Chernobyl won't leave a scar that lasts 50 million years. Sure, the half-life of uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, but uranium does react with the environment, too, and will eventually be diluted in the environment across thousands of years. Chernobyl won't be severely radioactive 50 million years from now.
And what about the big ass concrete casket they have used to seal the thing off?

Are you REALLY telling me that NOTHING humans can produce is going to last as long as a plain old BONE? REALLY? All the advanced materials we can develop today, none of it will last as long as a bone?

You're just being difficult. Have you got some source to support your claim that nothing Humanity can build will last longer than a bone? because I think you're just being deliberately stubborn.
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Old September 23 2013, 02:10 PM   #51
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
Chernobyl! See, now that's a good example. And yet, even Chernobyl won't leave a scar that lasts 50 million years. Sure, the half-life of uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, but uranium does react with the environment, too, and will eventually be diluted in the environment across thousands of years. Chernobyl won't be severely radioactive 50 million years from now.
And what about the big ass concrete casket they have used to seal the thing off?

Are you REALLY telling me that NOTHING humans can produce is going to last as long as a plain old BONE? REALLY? All the advanced materials we can develop today, none of it will last as long as a bone?

You're just being difficult. Have you got some source to support your claim that nothing Humanity can build will last longer than a bone? because I think you're just being deliberately stubborn.
that's because generaly fossils aren't bones, they're minerals that have collected in the depression left by a bone that had decayed away
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Old September 23 2013, 03:30 PM   #52
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
And what about the big ass concrete casket they have used to seal the thing off?
It'll erode away, like any rocks would over such spans. What makes you think it would be more durable than anything in the natural world? Entire mountains and whole oceans can change their shapes in 50 million years so why should a relatively tiny lump of concrete survive longer?

Are you REALLY telling me that NOTHING humans can produce is going to last as long as a plain old BONE? REALLY? All the advanced materials we can develop today, none of it will last as long as a bone?
I'm saying that fossilized human bones are more likely to survive across deep time than anything else we've made so far. You're just not grasping how long geological time spans are. We've been on Earth an eyeblink, and our remains would be erased in another eyeblink.

You're just being difficult. Have you got some source to support your claim that nothing Humanity can build will last longer than a bone? because I think you're just being deliberately stubborn.
I'm a geophysicist. My education and training are my sources. I understand geology and physics, and I know that everything we've built so far is ephemeral. Geological processes are relentless and thorough, and will eventually erase almost everything we've created.

I'm sorry if that upsets you, but perhaps you should consider asking yourself why it upsets you.
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Old September 24 2013, 01:42 AM   #53
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Pavonis wrote: View Post
I'm a geophysicist. My education and training are my sources. I understand geology and physics, and I know that everything we've built so far is ephemeral. Geological processes are relentless and thorough, and will eventually erase almost everything we've created.

I'm sorry if that upsets you, but perhaps you should consider asking yourself why it upsets you.
Just wondering... how long do you think the stuff that was left on the Moon will last? There's no erosion, wind, volcanoes, continental drift, etc. going on there. Assuming (hypothetically) that we never go back there to pick up after ourselves, how long would the artifacts (and the astronauts' footprints) last?
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Old September 24 2013, 02:18 AM   #54
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

I don't know, but 65 million years is a LONG TIME. Don't know that we can really comprehend it.
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Old September 24 2013, 05:51 AM   #55
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Just wondering... how long do you think the stuff that was left on the Moon will last? There's no erosion, wind, volcanoes, continental drift, etc. going on there. Assuming (hypothetically) that we never go back there to pick up after ourselves, how long would the artifacts (and the astronauts' footprints) last?
Well, there is erosion on the Moon, but it's just due to micrometeoroids. The footprints particularly, but even the equipment left on the Moon, will be pummeled by impacts of various sizes over the eons. But it'll definitely be slower than any process on Earth. Everything may be intact and recognizable until the Sun becomes a red giant, 5 billion years from now. So you may have hit on the only truly durable evidence that will last across deep time.
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Old September 24 2013, 09:17 AM   #56
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
And what about the big ass concrete casket they have used to seal the thing off?
It'll erode away, like any rocks would over such spans. What makes you think it would be more durable than anything in the natural world? Entire mountains and whole oceans can change their shapes in 50 million years so why should a relatively tiny lump of concrete survive longer?
Oh, come on. So you think we have no rocks more than a few million years old?

Are you REALLY telling me that NOTHING humans can produce is going to last as long as a plain old BONE? REALLY? All the advanced materials we can develop today, none of it will last as long as a bone?
I'm saying that fossilized human bones are more likely to survive across deep time than anything else we've made so far. You're just not grasping how long geological time spans are. We've been on Earth an eyeblink, and our remains would be erased in another eyeblink.
I fully comprehend deep time. All I am saying is that if a dinosaur's broken eggshell can last 70 million years, then a LOT of what Humans have done will last just as long.

You're just being difficult. Have you got some source to support your claim that nothing Humanity can build will last longer than a bone? because I think you're just being deliberately stubborn.
I'm a geophysicist. My education and training are my sources. I understand geology and physics, and I know that everything we've built so far is ephemeral. Geological processes are relentless and thorough, and will eventually erase almost everything we've created.

I'm sorry if that upsets you, but perhaps you should consider asking yourself why it upsets you.
So perhaps you can tell me why all these huge structure we have built will all be vanished without a trace in a million years while dinosaur eggshells have lasted much much longer. I suspect that things are tougher than you imagine.
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Old September 24 2013, 03:05 PM   #57
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
And what about the big ass concrete casket they have used to seal the thing off?
It'll erode away, like any rocks would over such spans. What makes you think it would be more durable than anything in the natural world? Entire mountains and whole oceans can change their shapes in 50 million years so why should a relatively tiny lump of concrete survive longer?
Oh, come on. So you think we have no rocks more than a few million years old?
What? Of course we have rocks that are millions of years old. I'm saying the concrete of the Chernobyl sarcophagus would get eroded away - you have seen that concrete breaks down over relatively short times, right? - and the remains would be caught up in the rock cycle. The broken concrete would become coarse sediment and get mixed into the soil of the region.

Sedimentary rocks are made out of eroded igneous and metamorphic rocks, and metamorphic rocks are made out of metamorphosed igneous and sedimentary rocks, and igneous rocks are cooled and crystallized magma, which may have had sedimentary and metamorphic rocks in it at some point. There are specimens of all these types that are millions of years old, but particularly for the sedimentary rocks, the rocks are from HUGE deposits that took a long time to accumulate anyway. The tiny bit of concrete in the sarcophagus isn't going to remain intact for millions of years. It may end up in a sedimentary layer, though. Would that count as "intact" for you?

I fully comprehend deep time. All I am saying is that if a dinosaur's broken eggshell can last 70 million years, then a LOT of what Humans have done will last just as long.
Like what? You have to admit, you've not thought of anything that will remain intact on Earth for millions of years. Metals oxidize and concrete breaks down. You can see these things happen on the timescale of your own life. What makes you think anything we've built is that durable when we can watch things break down in our own lifetimes?

Consider how many dinosaur eggs must have existed across the entire Mesozoic era. And then think about how many dinosaur eggs we've actually recovered. All the dinosaur eggs in the entire world's museums are a tiny fraction of all the dinosaur eggs that ever existed. Some things don't survive because they're really durable, they just survive because they're merely lucky. Even something as fragile as an egg will sometimes get preserved by pure chance.

So perhaps you can tell me why all these huge structure we have built will all be vanished without a trace in a million years while dinosaur eggshells have lasted much much longer. I suspect that things are tougher than you imagine.
I've already explained that to you. Metals oxidize and concrete breaks down. Everything we've built needs maintenance. Or do you think all those huge structures we've built are just left to fend for themselves after construction is over? If we left everything alone, the environment would break things down over merely hundreds of years. Asphalt roads may leave a thin but recognizable layer in the rocks, though, if that makes you feel better. Dinosaur eggs just had sheer numbers and pure chance on their side to preserve a tiny fraction of them.

Who knows, maybe some freak conditions will preserve a cell phone intact across millions of years. Would you feel better if that were the case?
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Old September 24 2013, 08:03 PM   #58
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Praetorian wrote: View Post
Aye, as I said, that was Chakotay speculating. The only tangible proof was the Voth's dna, which matched ours. We have no way to know if what Chakotay said actually happened.

I insist on this point because it means that criticizing this episode on the basis that the Voth left no traces back on Earth isn't fair.

I for one consider this to be one the best Star Trek episodes, a classic allegorical tale.
Who's to say the traces aren't there, but hadn't been discovered. We just discovered a canyon in northern Greenland on the scale of the Grand Canyon, covered by ice. Perhaps the remnants of the proto-Voth civilization is buried on the Antarctic continent, or deep beneath the Earth's oceans?

I believe that even in the 24th century, the Earth still hides many secrets.
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Old September 24 2013, 09:27 PM   #59
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

20 million years of written history since leaving Earth.

10 million years ago, a clean up crew cruised by Earth and cleaned up any obvious evidence that they were ever there so that Origin could never be contradicted.
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Old September 24 2013, 09:33 PM   #60
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Or maybe they actually originated from Miri's homeworld, was it ever stated how close genetically the inhabitants of that world were with ours?
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