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Old September 19 2013, 02:32 AM   #16
Shawnster
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Sector 7 wrote: View Post
This was a far cry from the original idea that women could not become starship captains.
I don't know if "original idea" is the right description for that considering that it only showed up in the very last episode of the series -- and the very first episode, "The Cage," had shown a female Number One commanding the ship in the captain's absence. I'd call it more of an unfortunate afterthought that mercifully came too late to do any damage.
While I like "The Cage", it was an unsuccessful pilot for the series. In all of actual TOS, a woman never commanded a starship... even briefly.

Slightly incorrect.

This woman commanded not only a starship, but a whole squadron.



However, we never saw a human woman in command of a starship.
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Old September 19 2013, 02:47 AM   #17
The Old Mixer
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

The evidence is in "The Cage", when Pike says that he can't get used to having a woman on the bridge...then quickly apologizes to Number One, noting that she's "different".
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Old September 19 2013, 02:58 AM   #18
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Christopher wrote: View Post
^But it was never said they couldn't except by one insane character in the very last episode. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So again, I don't think it's valid to call it "the original idea" when it was never asserted until the very end of the series.
Well, Kirk agreed with Janice that "it" wasn't fair, and his closing lines of the episode (yuck, of the series, and ending in, "If only") make sense only if we are to believe that women were denied opportunities that men had.

I agree with what you first said about it in this thread. The episode was an anomaly, contrary to the intent established in The Cage, and on air in The Menagerie.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:35 AM   #19
The Old Mixer
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

The intent of "The Cage" was that it was unusual for women to even serve on the bridge....
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Old September 19 2013, 03:40 AM   #20
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

The point is, we're not talking about a uniform whole. We're talking about a show that was making up the rules of its universe as it went along -- not to mention a show made in the '60s when the aspiration for TV dramas was to be as much like anthologies as possible, so continuity was not a priority. So we should recognize that there are inconsistencies and mixed messages within it, rather than cherrypicking something from one episode and elevating it with language like "the original idea."
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Old September 19 2013, 04:09 AM   #21
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Christopher wrote: View Post
So we should recognize that there are inconsistencies and mixed messages within it, rather than cherrypicking something from one episode and elevating it with language like "the original idea."
Silly me, I thought the title of the thread was "Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS". My point remains valid.
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Old September 19 2013, 05:09 AM   #22
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Christopher wrote: View Post
More a practice than a concept, but TAS was the first incarnation of Trek to depict female security guards ("The Survivor," "The Lorelei Signal").
Not true. The female redshirt played by Julie Cobb in "By Any Other Name" was a security officer, not a yeoman. And she got kacked by the bad guys. Not a great initial showing, but she was security.
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Old September 19 2013, 05:17 AM   #23
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

FormerLurker wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
More a practice than a concept, but TAS was the first incarnation of Trek to depict female security guards ("The Survivor," "The Lorelei Signal").
Not true. The female redshirt played by Julie Cobb in "By Any Other Name" was a security officer, not a yeoman. And she got kacked by the bad guys. Not a great initial showing, but she was security.
Can you cite a source to support this?

It seems really doubtful. From Kirk's log in that episode:

Captain's log, stardate 4657.5. Work is proceeding on the Enterprise as my crew is forced to make the required changes in the ship for intergalactic travel. I can't forget the picture of Yeoman Thompson crushed to a handful of dust.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:41 PM   #24
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
So we should recognize that there are inconsistencies and mixed messages within it, rather than cherrypicking something from one episode and elevating it with language like "the original idea."
Silly me, I thought the title of the thread was "Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS". My point remains valid.
You've lost track of what we were discussing. I was referring to the claim that "Turnabout Intruder"'s last-minute assertion about female starship captains was "the original idea." I wasn't addressing anything to do with TAS at all.
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Old September 19 2013, 09:02 PM   #25
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Sector 7 wrote: View Post
This was a far cry from the original idea that women could not become starship captains.
I don't know if "original idea" is the right description for that considering that it only showed up in the very last episode of the series -- and the very first episode, "The Cage," had shown a female Number One commanding the ship in the captain's absence. I'd call it more of an unfortunate afterthought that mercifully came too late to do any damage.
While I like "The Cage", it was an unsuccessful pilot for the series. In all of actual TOS, a woman never commanded a starship... even briefly.

I humbly disagree - besides the Romulan Commander which was quite correctly sited in another post - but sticking to Starfleet vessels. If I'm remembering correctly, the portion of The Cage footage which shows Number One being left in command is encorporated into The Menagerie - thus including it in TOS.
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Old September 21 2013, 03:38 PM   #26
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Sector 7 wrote: View Post
This was a far cry from the original idea that women could not become starship captains.
I don't know if "original idea" is the right description for that considering that it only showed up in the very last episode of the series -- and the very first episode, "The Cage," had shown a female Number One commanding the ship in the captain's absence. I'd call it more of an unfortunate afterthought that mercifully came too late to do any damage.
While I like "The Cage", it was an unsuccessful pilot for the series. In all of actual TOS, a woman never commanded a starship... even briefly.
Wrong. The events from "The Cage" are presented as historical fact in the two-part "The Menagerie." And since the vast majority of "The Cage" footage is shown in the two-parter those events establish a fact in the TOS universe.
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Old September 21 2013, 06:20 PM   #27
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Shawnster wrote: View Post
This woman commanded not only a starship, but a whole squadron..
But not a squadron of Starfleet starships. And she not Human. As you noted, we never saw a human woman in command of a starship, it's possible that females of other species with memberships in the Federation did have their females in command of ships.

CaptPapa wrote: View Post
If I'm remembering correctly, the portion of The Cage footage which shows Number One being left in command is encorporated into The Menagerie - thus including it in TOS.
A parallel might be this as far as Number One being in a position where circumstances might place her in command of the ship.

Historically, American military policy was that women not be placed in combat assignments, however in their support roles women would occasionally find themselves in combat. They would travel into the wrong area, or events would overtake them. They would be removed from the combat situation as soon as possible, they would not be simply allowed to stay in combat.

As second in command Number One could find herself in command if something happen to Pike, but would she be allowed by Starfleet Command to retain that command? Or would a new commanding officer (male) have been assigned to the ship as soon as possible?

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Old September 21 2013, 06:27 PM   #28
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Again: the only hint of women not being allowed to command was in the very last episode of the show, which was a crappy episode that deserves to be ignored -- and the line was spoken by a lunatic. So why even take it seriously? Just write it off as one more of TOS's many continuity glitches and ignore the damn thing.
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Old September 21 2013, 06:55 PM   #29
Nerys Myk
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
This woman commanded not only a starship, but a whole squadron..
But not a squadron of Starfleet starships. And she not Human. As you noted, we never saw a human woman in command of a starship, it's possible that females of other species with memberships in the Federation did have their females in command of ships.

CaptPapa wrote: View Post
If I'm remembering correctly, the portion of The Cage footage which shows Number One being left in command is encorporated into The Menagerie - thus including it in TOS.
A parallel might be this as far as Number One being in a position where circumstances might place her in command of the ship.

Historically, American military policy was that women not be placed in combat assignments, however in their support roles women would occasionally find themselves in combat. They would travel into the wrong area, or events would overtake them. They would be removed from the combat situation as soon as possible, they would not be simply allowed to stay in combat.

As second in command Number One could find herself in command if something happen to Pike, but would she be allowed by Starfleet Command to retain that command? Or would a new commanding officer (male) have been assigned to the ship as soon as possible?
Why would Number One be an XO if she's not going to command one day? She's not a doctor, a therapist or the phone operator.
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Old September 25 2013, 06:35 AM   #30
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Off the top of my head...

Vulcan's Forge and Spock's hometown of Shi'Kar are from "Yesteryear"
The term "Vulcan's Forge" actually dates back to a Star Trek fanzine from 1969.

KAHS-WAN RITUAL - Spock's experience as a seven year old. Shi-Kar Desert Survival, Vulcan listed on holodeck panel in "TNG: The Emissary". T'Pol's experience mentioned in "Enterprise: The Catwalk".

LUNAPORT of "Yesteryear" - Locale on Earth's moon mentioned in "Enterprise: The Catwalk".

Second turbolift entrance to bridge, as later shown in TMP.

Mr Kyle's mustache, predating the mustache and goatee in ST II.

STARFLEET IDENTIFICATION CARD of "Mudd's Passion" - Featured in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock", "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home".
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