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Old September 22 2013, 05:37 PM   #31
Robert Comsol
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Assuming parallel evolution on other M Class planets and further assuming that no asteroid hit there 65 million years ago, there'd be a big probability we might encounter intelligent velociraptors.

Therefore the Gorn (the depiction in ENT seems more realistic, IMHO) and the bipedal reptiles from "Bem" (TAS) look like realistic aliens.

Bob
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Old September 22 2013, 05:53 PM   #32
Isolinear
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Assuming parallel evolution on other M Class planets and further assuming that no asteroid hit there 65 million years ago, there'd be a big probability we might encounter intelligent velociraptors.
Bob
Who says us evolving into an intelligent species wasn't a fluke?
As far as we know, we are the only intelligent species, after 600 million years of complex life.
We don't have intelligent birds or crocodiles today... the closest cousins of the dinosaurs.

I think intelligent life may be very, very, VERY rare in the universe.
Technological societies will be even more rare. Who says they won't be stuck in the middle-ages forever? On our world science had an uphill battle against certain..... less clear-headed forces.
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Old September 23 2013, 01:47 AM   #33
JirinPanthosa
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

It's true that it may be the case that intelligent life is incredibly rare, but that's certainly not the case in the Trek universe.

Given the premise that every other planet has intelligent life, it's certainly believable that reptilian-like creatures could become intelligent.
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Old September 23 2013, 02:22 AM   #34
David.Blue
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

I'm gonna agree about Babylon 5 and Farscape. They did it. Trek could do it.
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Old September 23 2013, 03:06 AM   #35
Nightdiamond
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

I don't know... if evolution (on earth) happened the way scientists say it happened, it's hard to see how aliens on a totally different planet could develop 5 fingers, two eyes, and a brain like ours.

If they develop that far at all.

OTOH, as far humanoid appearance, we tend to think we are the prototype, and if there is other humanoid life out there, they are the copies.

What if they see us as the copies and themselves as the prototypes?

And then there's the concept of alien creating or transporting life on this planet thrown into the mix- that would open the possibility that aliens can look like they do on Trek.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; September 23 2013 at 11:08 AM.
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Old September 23 2013, 09:24 AM   #36
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

TNG did play their get out of jail free card, by giving humanoid species a common point of origin, which then evolved on their own respective planets. That being said, I would like to see a very alien character make an appearance, though energy/light beings have been done many times before.
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Old September 23 2013, 04:08 PM   #37
Isolinear
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
And then there's the concept of alien creating or transporting life on this planet thrown into the mix- that would open the possibility that aliens can look like they do on Trek.
That was the explanation in TNG's "The Chase". Nice retcon.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
OTOH, as far humanoid appearance, we tend to think we are the prototype, and if there is other humanoid life out there, they are the copies.

What if they see us as the copies and themselves as the prototypes?
"Humanoid" life is a Star Trek concept. There are no "copies" and "originals". Probably only vaguely similar shapes as a result of convergent evolution, and even then 2 arms + 2 legs may be rare; even on our own planet there are species that look nothing like us.
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Old September 23 2013, 09:12 PM   #38
Nightdiamond
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Isolinear wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
And then there's the concept of alien creating or transporting life on this planet thrown into the mix- that would open the possibility that aliens can look like they do on Trek.
That was the explanation in TNG's "The Chase". Nice retcon.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
OTOH, as far humanoid appearance, we tend to think we are the prototype, and if there is other humanoid life out there, they are the copies.

What if they see us as the copies and themselves as the prototypes?
"Humanoid" life is a Star Trek concept. There are no "copies" and "originals". Probably only vaguely similar shapes as a result of convergent evolution, and even then 2 arms + 2 legs may be rare; even on our own planet there are species that look nothing like us.
TOS also did something similar in Return To Tomorrow.


I agree, I tend to think the likelihood of finding human-like aliens with the similar brain structures, five fingers, ect, is because of the unique way different forms of life evolved on earth-(chance, accidents and opportunity).

It's not so much as humans thinking they are the prototypes, but more like thinking we are the centerpiece to which all other life should be compared.

For example, if we did discover that there was intelligent, humanoid looking life on Pluto we might ask them, how did you evolve just like us?!?

Whereas the aliens maybe thinking the exact same thing.

Perhaps aliens on other planets can evolve the same way we did if evolution were some repeating, re-occurring theme when the conditions are right?

Like oceans, volcanoes, canyons, earthquakes etc on other planets.

Not likely, I think, but this view does open the possibilities.
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Old September 24 2013, 08:06 AM   #39
FreddyE
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Isolinear wrote: View Post
Who says us evolving into an intelligent species wasn't a fluke?
As far as we know, we are the only intelligent species, after 600 million years of complex life.
We don't have intelligent birds or crocodiles today... the closest cousins of the dinosaurs.

Well...if the results of the experiments with gorilla Koko are any indication...it seems we are NOT the only intelligent species on earth. Koko (and other gorillas who were thought Gorilla Sign Language) does show very clear signs of selfawareness, limited ability of comprehension (comparable to a 5 year old) and transfer ability (the ability to transfer known concepts to different situations)
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Old September 24 2013, 12:35 PM   #40
Isolinear
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

FreddyE wrote: View Post
Well...if the results of the experiments with gorilla Koko are any indication...it seems we are NOT the only intelligent species on earth.
All primates are practically one big family. So, our kind of intelligence emerged only once. My point was, where are all the intelligent snails, birds and beetles?

1 million years of human intelligence vs 600 million years of non-sentient life. (or even 3000 million if you count single-celled organisms)
What then are the odds of several very human-looking species developing roughly the same level of technology at roughly the same moment in history? It's actually pretty ridiculous when you think about it.
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Old September 24 2013, 01:13 PM   #41
Robert Comsol
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Isolinear wrote: View Post
All primates are practically one big family. So, our kind of intelligence emerged only once. My point was, where are all the intelligent snails, birds and beetles?.
Possibly their would-have-been ancestors perished during an extinction event.

Bob
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Old September 24 2013, 10:32 PM   #42
JirinPanthosa
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
I don't know... if evolution (on earth) happened the way scientists say it happened, it's hard to see how aliens on a totally different planet could develop 5 fingers, two eyes, and a brain like ours.

If they develop that far at all.
How do you know it's not the case that this form is necessary to evolve abstract reasoning?

To evolve abstract reasoning you need to be tool users, to use tools you need opposable thumbs. To successfully hunt you need depth perception, to have depth perception you need two eyes. Sexual reproduction is also likely in any developed culture, because without biodiversity you have no diversity of ideas and you're less likely to be able to adapt to changes in your habitat.

Bats and birds evolved wings from separate evolutionary paths, why can't aliens and humans?

I do agree it's probably rare to evolve abstract reasoning. I tend to think you need a series of near-extinction events that do not result in extinction in order to force animals to reason to survive. Most planets probably either have extinction events or they never have any near-extinction events.
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Old September 24 2013, 11:48 PM   #43
T'Girl
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

Isolinear wrote: View Post
All primates are practically one big family. So, our kind of intelligence emerged only once. My point was, where are all the intelligent snails, birds and beetles?.
Cetaceans are widely regarded as being quite intelligent.

An elephant's cerebral cortex has as many cortical neurons and cortical synapses as a Human. They are ranked with chimps and dolphins in terms of problem-solving abilities and general intelligence.

Cephalopods (especially Coleoideas) exhibit fairly high intelligence, it hard to qualify how high because they possess a nervous system that is fundamentally different from a vertebrates.

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Old September 25 2013, 12:43 AM   #44
Isolinear
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
To evolve abstract reasoning you need to be tool users
Why? Simply observing and reacting properly will do the trick.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
to use tools you need opposable thumbs.
Why? I'm certain there are other configuations. Just look at an octopus.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
to have depth perception you need two eyes.
Why not 3 or 8?
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Old September 25 2013, 07:09 AM   #45
Maurice
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Re: could they do a show with "realistic" aliens?

You don't "need" opposable thumbs or binocular vision. To be a tool making and using animal certainly doesn't require thumbs. I can pick up a pen and hold it between my fingers without using my thumb (index and pinky under, middle and ring over), and I can use a finger on each hand to oppose one another as well. We have a bias towards what is natural for us, but it's not logical to assume such things are the natural order.
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