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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Crimson Shadow.
Outstanding 66 66.67%
Above Average 27 27.27%
Average 4 4.04%
Below Average 2 2.02%
Poor 0 0%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 6 2013, 03:18 AM   #136
TheUsualSuspect
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

JeBuS wrote: View Post
SolidusRaccoon wrote: View Post
I think whoever was behind the assassination did it do get a more hotheaded individual in place. There are more cards to be played yet.
I agree. I don't think that individual is Ishan, though. The puppetmasters, whoever they may be, probably arranged for Ishan to be the pro tem, but I don't think Ishan is their puppet. I think whoever comes after him is the real goal. The person elected to replace Bacco is the ultimate goal.
That would be consistent with what we know of The Fall series so far. Since it takes place over a sixty day period, it should end right around election day.
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Old October 6 2013, 03:25 AM   #137
SolidusRaccoon
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

JeBuS wrote: View Post
The person elected to replace Bacco is the ultimate goal.
That is too long term, how could they have a chance to sway an election that big? I just think they have a move to make soon and wanted a reactionary in place. It sounded like Ishan would have been the most likely choice for the temporary presidency. These novels d take place in a short time span. Something big will break.
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Old October 6 2013, 03:34 AM   #138
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

SolidusRaccoon wrote: View Post
JeBuS wrote: View Post
The person elected to replace Bacco is the ultimate goal.
That is too long term, how could they have a chance to sway an election that big? I just think they have a move to make soon and wanted a reactionary in place. It sounded like Ishan would have been the most likely choice for the temporary presidency. These novels d take place in a short time span. Something big will break.
I don't doubt that they're taking every chance in the interim to destabilize the Federation. But is a 60-day play really too long term? I think you're right about wanting a reactionary in place. But don't you think if the pro tem President started a couple little shooting wars or occupations, or let a couple of alliances simply drop, on top of the puppetmasters' final play right before the election, that an even more reactionary person might be put into office?
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Old October 6 2013, 06:34 AM   #139
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

JeBuS wrote: View Post
I don't doubt that they're taking every chance in the interim to destabilize the Federation. But is a 60-day play really too long term? I think you're right about wanting a reactionary in place. But don't you think if the pro tem President started a couple little shooting wars or occupations, or let a couple of alliances simply drop, on top of the puppetmasters' final play right before the election, that an even more reactionary person might be put into office?
And by itself, transforming the Federation-Cardassian relationship from an emergent alliance to something much more hostile would be a great accomplishment. The Federation needs the Cardassians inside the Khitomer Alliance to keep that pact from just looking like the old Federation-Klingon alliance reheated, and a hostile Cardassia that was either neutral or an active part of the Typhon Pact would be a major strategic challenge for the Federation. The True Way had a good plan.
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Old October 6 2013, 07:24 AM   #140
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
And by itself, transforming the Federation-Cardassian relationship from an emergent alliance to something much more hostile would be a great accomplishment. The Federation needs the Cardassians inside the Khitomer Alliance to keep that pact from just looking like the old Federation-Klingon alliance reheated, and a hostile Cardassia that was either neutral or an active part of the Typhon Pact would be a major strategic challenge for the Federation. The True Way had a good plan.
The True Way's puppetmasters had a good plan.
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Old October 6 2013, 08:14 AM   #141
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

SolidusRaccoon wrote: View Post
Well, I needed to take a long and very hot shower after reading this book, I felt that dirty. So let me get this straight.

It is OK to bury and cover up truth as long as it saves the sitting government from losing face.

Dirty tactics and threats are acceptable as long as the "Right People" are in charge.

Anyone who might expose the buried secrets is be considered an enemy.

Media and Police should let their political views determine how they do their job.

The military keeping secrets from elected leaders is fine and dandy, especially when it comes to the assassination of a leaders predecessor.

A surveillance society is acceptable as long as those in power say it is to keep the "bad" people from getting back into power.

Someone who has murdered, tortured, and done other horrible crimes in the past is a fine choice for a leader. And a fine public face for your people. As long as they promise to provide people with food, water, and medicine.

People are too stupid to be trusted with the truth.


From my own study of history the greatest and most vile tyrants have never came to power promising evil and destruction. They come to power promising that no one will go hungry, no one will suffer. Just put us in complete charge of your lives and everything will be fine. Looke like Cardassia has not learned a thing.

Truth is NEVER a bad thing. Truth never hurts. Truth sets you free. Truth is NEVER to be feared.
That was, to me, the entire point of the novel. That, although you are completely right in itself, reality has shown that hiding several things from 'the people' is sometimes neccesary.
I love that line from Men In Black. "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
Sadly, that is the truth. Revealing everything would cause a stampede. Across Cardassia, because Cardassians killed the President. Across Bajor, because Cardassians tried to frame the Bajorans for the murder. Across the Federation, because people would demand justice and cut ties with Cardassia, a ally they really need.
Not just that, if all was revealed, if there is indeed more going on that we've learned sofar, it would force the (perhaps) true assisins to move their plans forward. Atleast now, there is something of a calm situation, from which those looking to seek the truth, can actually find it and use it.

You talk of studying history. History has shown, that sometimes ugly situations are neccesary to achieve what is right. The world isn't black and white. It could be, maybe, one day. But like you said, there are those who seek power and are willing to use whatever is neccesary to get it. So there must also be those who are willing to do ugly things to stop them. All the wrong things for all the right reasons I guess.

Do I like that? No. But I've accepted that for now, this is the world I live in, with hope that others share my feeling that a better can be made. That way, we can erradicate all those warmongers in the world be showing them a better example, untill one day those tyrants won't excist anymore.
Is that a fallacy? Probably.

And as for Garak being a great choice to lead the Union? He might have done all these horrible things in the past, but his love for Cardassia and its people is true. Right now, his heart and his mind are all in the right place, and he vows to seek something that is actually better for the Union. Themet only seeks to bring back a disgusting and nasty version of the Union that might have been somewhat stronger, but was also a horrible place for Cardassians to life in, and it would make the Union an enemy of all those around it.
So tell me, even if you knew that Garak's past was so horrible, if his future is the best for Cardassia, whilst Themet's is so horrible, even though his past might be clean(er), the choice is simple.
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Old October 6 2013, 06:47 PM   #142
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

Mage wrote: View Post
Sadly, that is the truth. Revealing everything would cause a stampede. Across Cardassia, because Cardassians killed the President. Across Bajor, because Cardassians tried to frame the Bajorans for the murder. Across the Federation, because people would demand justice and cut ties with Cardassia, a ally they really need.
It's also noteworthy that this was not a plan that was authorized by the Cardassian governent. Castellan Garan learned of the plot only after the fact, and no legitimate Cardassian authority or political party was involved. What would happen would wreck the substantial progress Cardassia made, at considerable cost to everyone involved.

And as for Garak being a great choice to lead the Union? He might have done all these horrible things in the past, but his love for Cardassia and its people is true. Right now, his heart and his mind are all in the right place, and he vows to seek something that is actually better for the Union. Themet only seeks to bring back a disgusting and nasty version of the Union that might have been somewhat stronger, but was also a horrible place for Cardassians to life in, and it would make the Union an enemy of all those around it.
It's clearly a dangerous time for Garak, who to his credit knows this and has surrounded himself with people who--hopefully--will keep him from indulging his worst instincts.

I'm also unsure that even if Temet was elected, he'd be capable of restoring the pre-Dukat Union. Cardassia has changed hugely, and the sort of police repression that would be necessary might not be something that the Union could survive. Cardassia Prime is doing better than Deneva, sure, but it came close ...

So tell me, even if you knew that Garak's past was so horrible, if his future is the best for Cardassia, whilst Themet's is so horrible, even though his past might be clean(er), the choice is simple.
Temet almost certainly did make use of a comfort woman.
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Old October 6 2013, 07:12 PM   #143
SolidusRaccoon
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

Mage and I think the cover up would do more damage than that actually assassination. If someone else knows, if some else leaks the info the fallout would be much worse. Once it is known that both Starfleet and the Cardassian government hid the truth, all heck would break loose.

And I think Themet was just a poorly done caricature by Miss. McCormack. I waiting for him to twirl his mustache and tie a widow to train tracks. And the most interesting thing was that Cardassia First actually had some very valid concerns.

The government signing a secret agreement with the Federation, which the people can not see until after it has been signed.

Cardassia allowing the Federation to dictate policy. Even though the war is long over, a new government is in charge, and Cardassia is an ally of the Federation. I don't think the US is still telling Germany, Japan, and Italy how to run things.
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Old October 6 2013, 07:24 PM   #144
Mage
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

SolidusRaccoon wrote: View Post
Mage and I think the cover up would do more damage than that actually assassination. If someone else knows, if some else leaks the info the fallout would be much worse. Once it is known that both Starfleet and the Cardassian government hid the truth, all heck would break loose. .
I think you misunderstood me. I don't think the cover-up is more damaging. I actually think that covering it up is, even though certainly not a good thing, it is the lesser of two evils.
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Old October 6 2013, 07:41 PM   #145
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

SolidusRaccoon wrote: View Post
Mage and I think the cover up would do more damage than that actually assassination. If someone else knows, if some else leaks the info the fallout would be much worse. Once it is known that both Starfleet and the Cardassian government hid the truth, all heck would break loose.
I'd distinguish the sort of temporary coverup here, where the people passively involved are resigning and others are being investigated and arrested and the factions involved are being dealt with, from a more thorough and intended-to-be-enduring coverup aimed at repressing public knowledge and otherwise not changing the status quo too much.

And I think Themet was just a poorly done caricature by Miss. McCormack. I waiting for him to twirl his mustache and tie a widow to train tracks.
Why was he a poorly-done caricature? His rhetoric and actions--supporting a militarily-powerful Cardassia, denigrating the Bajorans as violent ingrates, making use of sex slaves, et cetera--do fit squarely with past depictions of the behaviour of members of the Cardassian military.

Even though the war is long over, a new government is in charge, and Cardassia is an ally of the Federation. I don't think the US is still telling Germany, Japan, and Italy how to run things.
Italy's no longer under close supervision by the United States, no. That's at least partly a consequence of the need in the early Cold War to prevent Italy from going Communist, or neutralist.

Japan, however, was kept under very tight control for decades. It still keeps its American-imposed constitution limiting defense spending to 1% of GDP.

As for Germany, both German states were kept under very tight control after 1949. East Germany was a Soviet puppet state, consistently ruled by hard-liners closely aligned to conservative factions in the Soviet Union proper unlike virtually every other Soviet satellite state. West Germany ended up acquiring much more autonomy, but even its revival was geared towards enabling European and North Atlantic solidarity. (The West German military was geared entirely towards supporting NATO plans on the northern European plain, West Germany supported plans for European integration to demonstrate its trustworthiness and escape its immediate past, et cetera.) Germany only became a fully sovereign state in 1990 upon reunification.

The Cardassian Union was many things, many of them good, many of them quite evil. The maintenance of a totalitarian state with a frightening secret police, the aggressive conquest of neighbouring worlds, the mass enslavement of subject populations (including sex slavery), and biological experimentation upon captives all featured. It wouldn't be unfair to the Union to say that, in many ways, its behaviour paralleled that of Nazi Germany.

As if this wasn't bad enough, the brief period of civilian government was followed by the initially very popular rule of Gul Dukat, a man responsible for committing multiple atrocities against Bajorans and committed to a campaign of military conquest against all of Cardassia's neighbours. This war--which, in the novels, is shown as including medical experimentation committed against Federation citizens on Betazed--ended with Cardassia's allies turning against it and committing genocide on a wide scale against the Cardassians. The Union after the Dominion War must look a lot like Germany after the Second World War, a physically and morally devastated polity.

It seems pretty clear to me that the Federation would want to keep an extended presence in the Cardassian Union for some time, and some guarantees that a newly-democratic Cardassia is going to behave properly in the future. By the same standards, it also seems plausible to me that other Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers like the Klingons and the Romulans would acquiesce in this. It also seems plausible to me that a revived Cardassian government inclined towards democracy might not want to have unfettered sovereignty, at least not while it's rebuilding.
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Old October 6 2013, 07:50 PM   #146
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

I gave it an outstanding review.

Unlike the first book in the Fall series this one didn't disappoint. It's very well written, sharp and crisp. The dialog is interesting, believable and the characters feel fully rounded.
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Old October 6 2013, 08:11 PM   #147
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

SolidusRaccoon wrote: View Post
Well, I needed to take a long and very hot shower after reading this book, I felt that dirty. So let me get this straight.

It is OK to bury and cover up truth as long as it saves the sitting government from losing face.

Dirty tactics and threats are acceptable as long as the "Right People" are in charge.
Those have been persistent themes in the Marcokradiverse novels going back to at least A Time to Heal.
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Old October 7 2013, 06:58 PM   #148
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

I voted Outstanding. This was a great book. I liked the focus on Cardassia, and one of my favorite DS9 characters.
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Old October 7 2013, 09:30 PM   #149
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I voted Outstanding. This was a great book. I liked the focus on Cardassia, and one of my favorite DS9 characters.
Your favorite character is a planet? Kinda like Mogo?
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Old October 7 2013, 09:58 PM   #150
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Re: TF: The Crimson Shadow by Una McCormack - Review Thread (Spoilers!

Una McCormack wrote: View Post
Thank you to everyone who has expressed such enthusiasm for the book! I wrote it in a big burst of energetic and riotous joy/passion and I've been so looking forward to seeing what people would make of it. I wanted a fast and exhilarating but not slight read, and it sounds like I've pulled this off. Phew! And thank you again.
You very much did pull this off. But the only problem I encountered is that after I finished reading, I ended up with no idea what to read next.

Very well done and very good. Now if only you can do a follow up to it.
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