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Old September 20 2013, 10:12 PM   #46
David.Blue
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Vengeance is larger than Enterprise-E but is more primitive, even if advanced fro its time. Consider...

The Enterprise-E can modulate its shields and presumably in the wake of Voyager's return has much improved armor. Even the Enterprise-D demonstrated great versatility in its technology, including a much greater transporter range and an ability to almost re-configure a planet's atmosphere! This vessel is designed to take on Borg cubes and survive, as well as Dominion capital ships and the topline warships of the Klingon and Romulan empires a century later than that of the Vengeance.

Keep in mind also the Vengeance didn't manage to destroy the original Enterprise. Even with surprise on its side! Yet that very same Enterprise managed to kill every single person aboard the Excalibur, while engaging another three Constitution-class cruisers! This was before the refit!

Given it was essentially designed by a man with little in-depth knowledge of current tech, seems to me likely the Vengeance's main advantage was simply its size and the sheer amount of power its (no doubt huge) engines generated. But this would be analogous to sending the Japanese WWII cruiser Yamato to take on a modern USN frigate. Lacking enormous luck, incompetence aboard the frigate, great genius from the cruiser's command, or some combination thereof, the Yamato would be doomed.
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Old September 20 2013, 10:27 PM   #47
shivkala
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

R. Star wrote: View Post
See, I don't buy that the Narada changed everything regarding ship design. Just look at the Kelvin. It was bigger than the original NCC-1701 20 plus years earlier. The JJverse was an alternate timeline long before Nero flew into it.
Professor Zoom explains to Flash why saving his mother caused changes to the timeline that happened before and were not directly linked to his mother's murder, from Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox.

Yes, it's a crap explanation. What do you expect, it's from a crap movie, based on a crap comic series. Still, it seems to apply to the JJ-Verse.
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Old September 20 2013, 10:36 PM   #48
F. King Daniel
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

David.Blue wrote: View Post
The Vengeance is larger than Enterprise-E but is more primitive, even if advanced fro its time. Consider...

The Enterprise-E can modulate its shields and presumably in the wake of Voyager's return has much improved armor. Even the Enterprise-D demonstrated great versatility in its technology, including a much greater transporter range and an ability to almost re-configure a planet's atmosphere! This vessel is designed to take on Borg cubes and survive, as well as Dominion capital ships and the topline warships of the Klingon and Romulan empires a century later than that of the Vengeance.

Keep in mind also the Vengeance didn't manage to destroy the original Enterprise. Even with surprise on its side! Yet that very same Enterprise managed to kill every single person aboard the Excalibur, while engaging another three Constitution-class cruisers! This was before the refit!
Interestingly (or not, since the show was of course severly limited by it's budget and the technology of the era vs. a modern blockbuster) there was no visible damage to the Excalibur after this killing blow. Perhaps M-5 damaged the inertial dampners and gravity systems, reducing the Excalibur crew to 1mm-thick paste on the rear bulkheads? A lucky or ultra-precise shot, rather than a show of brute force as we saw with Vengeance vs. Enterprise.
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Old September 21 2013, 12:04 AM   #49
Chemahkuu
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Phasers in TOS seemed to work on the principle of bathing the target in the energy it emitted unless otherwise targetting more precisely for cutting etc

I just assumed the Enterprises shot flooded the entire ship with the equivalent of a hand phaser on a wide angle kill setting, other wise leaving the ship seemingly undamaged but heavily irradiated and slightly warped.

In TOS-R the targetted portion of the ship keeps on glowing blue after the shot ends, until the fatal shot when the entire Excalibur glows for several seconds and begins to list.
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Old September 21 2013, 12:08 AM   #50
David.Blue
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

R. Star wrote: View Post
See, I don't buy that the Narada changed everything regarding ship design. Just look at the Kelvin. It was bigger than the original NCC-1701 20 plus years earlier. The JJverse was an alternate timeline long before Nero flew into it.
I can play Devil's Advocate here.

USS Kelvin was larger than a Constitution-class, yes. That does not translate necessarily into more advanced. I read somewhere the notion that here was a deep space, long-term survey ship, with a crew mostly of scientists and their families. A passenger liner or freighter might be much larger than a warship, but less advanced in design as well as less able to defend itself. Clearly Kelvin is not a civilian ship, but I would argue it might be a slower, larger science vessel--a souped-up Oberth as it were. Or, more likely, a huge primitive Oberth that had to be that big because it was going to be on its own for much longer periods of time.

I've got other problems with Abrahms flick but this one doesn't seem to be a contradiction. IMHO
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Old September 21 2013, 12:36 AM   #51
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I guess I need to buy an oil tanker, put a few rockets, torpedoes and sonars on it, and travel back a 100 years in time. Boy that'll revolutionize the navy.
Well, yeah - hugely. But, you know, mostly because of the time travel technology.
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Old September 21 2013, 12:57 AM   #52
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Vengeance verses Enterprise Dee, is like expecting the best world war one fighter plane to take out a modern fifth generation fighter.
The same Enterprise-D that got destroyed by a decades old Klingon rust bucket, and a decades old Klingon rust bucket that wasn't even in its class size at that.

Seriously I have to give this fight to the Vengeance just because 23rd century starships are apparently built better than their 24th century counterparts.

I mean hell one hit to the nacelles and the D goes up like the fourth of july where as Reliant gets a nacelle blown clean off in a fight and needs Khan setting off genesis to be destroyed and the Constellation gets the absolute shit kicked out of it by the Doomsday Machine and is apparently salvageable.
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Old September 21 2013, 01:27 AM   #53
Praetor
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

No starship is stronger than the power of plot.
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Old September 21 2013, 01:37 AM   #54
The Wormhole
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Praetor wrote: View Post
No starship is stronger than the power of plot.
On that note, since the Enterprise E as a hero ship and the Vengeance is a villain ship, of course the Enterprise E is going to win. Unless Marcus and his bridge crew have access to Geordi's ocular implants.
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Old September 21 2013, 01:41 AM   #55
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I guess I need to buy an oil tanker, put a few rockets, torpedoes and sonars on it, and travel back a 100 years in time. Boy that'll revolutionize the navy.
Wow! That would change everything. (Not that the Europeans weren't in the midst of their own arms race.)
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Old September 21 2013, 01:44 AM   #56
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The same Enterprise-D that got destroyed by a decades old Klingon rust bucket, and a decades old Klingon rust bucket that wasn't even in its class size at that.

...

I mean hell one hit to the nacelles and the D goes up like the fourth of july where as Reliant gets a nacelle blown clean off in a fight and needs Khan setting off genesis to be destroyed and the Constellation gets the absolute shit kicked out of it by the Doomsday Machine and is apparently salvageable.
The Klingons basically lowered the Enterprise's shields by figuring out the phase modulation. Given that, a few shots would have been enough to cripple the ship, in any century.

The E-E would toast the Vengeance, exactly the same way the Narada took down every ship it faced. 100 years is a long time for weapons to improve.
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Old September 21 2013, 07:18 PM   #57
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

First, an aside

I'm going to say that the timeline was compromised mainly by Nero's death as the Narada collapsed into the final black hole. I'm thinking some of that tech made its way all over the place, with both Feds and Romulans getting a piece of it.

I had an idea for fan fiction that Archer--from The Maltise Falcon, not the cartoon--later found the bird and that it was a shaped dilithium crystal after all. I don't think I'm the first to suggest something with the name Archer though...

Due to debris, found after Enterprise, people learned what Romulans looked like before "Balance-" but some tech was also found before, allowing the NX-01 to advance--this allowed Kelvin.

So help me, this drone vessel:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan_drone-ship

Looks like something salvaged from Narada--not to mention the D-7 Archer encountered. Here is where the JJ timeline begins.

This means that 24 Century (Enterprise-E era) technology was made available earlier on--at least some of it. Vengeance had a TOS-E era lay-out with stright nacelles, but that was allowed due to advancements in warp technology gained from wreckage. The result is that Enterprise-E probably has better integration of tech--better sensors, etc--but Vengeance had more powerful weapons from the altered timeline giving everything a boost.

Had Vengeance been captured by the Ent-E then refitted--then it would be the be-all-end all ship with advantages from the interplay of two timelines


Shawnster wrote: View Post

Hmm.. they never hit the same targets? Didn't shoot asteroids? That's what helped me realize the strengths of Star Wars ships vs. Star Trek ships. Look for common targets
Some asteroids are different, after all. with The Die is Cast we saw trek ships fully able to slag a planet to its mantle.
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Old September 21 2013, 08:38 PM   #58
Shawnster
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

T'Girl wrote: View Post

Vengeance verses Enterprise Dee, is like expecting the best world war one fighter plane to take out a modern fifth generation fighter.

It depends on when the technological advances come into play. A Royal Navy ship from 1703 vs. a Royal Navy ship from 1803 would be a close battle, since both ships are wooden sailing ships and cannon technology was about the same.

In contrast, a US Navy ship from 1803 vs. a US Navy ship from 1903 might be a bit more one-sided, since we're talking about a wooden sailing ship vs. a steel ship with steam or diesel power.

So, this begs the question as to how much technology advanced from the 23rd to the 24th centuries.

David.Blue wrote: View Post

Keep in mind also the Vengeance didn't manage to destroy the original Enterprise. Even with surprise on its side! Yet that very same Enterprise managed to kill every single person aboard the Excalibur, while engaging another three Constitution-class cruisers! This was before the refit!
FOUL! You're not comparing apples to apples. Vengeance did not face the TOS Enterprise. Therefore, Vengeance did not fight the very same Enterprise that managed to kill the Excalibur while engaging three other Constitution-class cruisers. What happened in the Prime universe has absolutely no bearing on the Abramsverse. That's one of the points of this very topic, after all.

Which is more powerful - the Abramsverse Enterprise or the TOS Enterprise?
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Old September 21 2013, 09:26 PM   #59
Shane Houston
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

As much as I hate JJ-Prise, I hate the Vengeance more. It's JJ's version of an Uber ship. It's unattractive and silly to say the least. But I do like the question.

I'm reminded that while the Vengeance did manage to kick the JJ-Prise's behind, it wasn't a fair fight. First, the ship's warp core was damaged. Secondly, since JJ-Kirk didn't think another ship could fire at him while at warp, he may not have had his shields up when the Vengeance attacked. If the JJ-Prise was in prime condition, it could have gave the Vengeance a run for it's money. Or maybe not, who's to say in universe.

The Vengeance may have more phasers to fire, but that means nothing against regenerative shield systems, ablative hull armour, quantum torpedo's and multi frequency phaser arrays. Besides that, the Enterprise-E is commanded by a captain who's been a captain for decades, with just as much or more experience than Admiral Marcus. Picard would win, thus the E-E would win.
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Old September 21 2013, 10:13 PM   #60
MikeS
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

It seems obvious to me that the timeline has been altered since the events of First Contact - Who knows what kind of Borg/ Ent-E debris were subsequently discovered and reverse engineered.

We never actually see the crew of the 'E' get home after ST:FC. Perhaps it was like Back To The Future II, and they returned to a universe where Q owned a bikers casino and was sleeping with Picard's Mum. Inssurection and Nemesis must take place in The Nexus(TM).

This would explain why the previously never heard of Archer seems to have had such an important role in this NUniverse - His dad actually found something that enabled him to "invent" the warp five engine early.

So to answer the original question, the technology is way advanced and the Ent-E would be defeated.

Though I still can't figure out why the Wormhole Aliens (TM) never saw this coming/revealed it to The Sisko. Perhaps he will return in the next movie to sort the mess out.
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