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Old December 12 2013, 10:29 PM   #271
Nob Akimoto
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The type seen in "Rascals" was a reuse of the VFX from "Yesterday's Enterprise" which was a hugely upscaled BOP of about 600-700m. Even if we take the dialogue referring to them as "B'Rels" at face value, they're much larger from a scaling perspective than the tiny 12-man versions we saw in TMP. And we've seen Klingons produce some impressive modern ships anyway like the Negh'var. And since the huuuuge BOPs in "The Defector" were considered to be scary frontline ships that made Tomalok run away despite having a pair of enormous Warbirds with him, I think it's probably a safer assumption that the Klingon ship's internals have been substantially upgraded in the interim along with the gigantism, rather than the other powers stagnating relatively speaking.

I'm not sure really if we should stick things from "Countdown" in here, but in that, at least, the Enterprise-E was holding her own pretty well against Narada, so I think the question becomes if Vengeance is actually powerful enough to fight toe to toe with Narada.
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Old December 13 2013, 03:54 AM   #272
Avro Arrow
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The Klingon D-7/K'tinga class is the same in "Unexpected" as it is in Deep Space Nine (and although that was apparently a last-minute substitute in ENT, the alternate Klingon ship model looked virtually identical to the D-7 too).
It had similar lines, but I certainly wouldn't call it "virtually identical", any more than I would say the original pre-refit 1701 looked "virtually identical" to the refit 1701, even though they had similar lines as well.

I was so hopeful that CBS would have decided to replace the K'tinga with the D4 in that ep when ENT season 1 was released on blu-ray. I should have known better.
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Old December 14 2013, 01:25 PM   #273
F. King Daniel
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
The type seen in "Rascals" was a reuse of the VFX from "Yesterday's Enterprise" which was a hugely upscaled BOP of about 600-700m.
Was it? In that case, my bad.
Even if we take the dialogue referring to them as "B'Rels" at face value, they're much larger from a scaling perspective than the tiny 12-man versions we saw in TMP. And we've seen Klingons produce some impressive modern ships anyway like the Negh'var. And since the huuuuge BOPs in "The Defector" were considered to be scary frontline ships that made Tomalok run away despite having a pair of enormous Warbirds with him, I think it's probably a safer assumption that the Klingon ship's internals have been substantially upgraded in the interim along with the gigantism, rather than the other powers stagnating relatively speaking.
Yet when we see the bridge of the "new flagship" Neg'Var, it's rusty and ancient-looking like the rest of the Klingon fleet! I wonder if "new" actually meant newly found and retrofitted from some ancient long-lost Hur'Q/Karsid starbase?
I'm not sure really if we should stick things from "Countdown" in here, but in that, at least, the Enterprise-E was holding her own pretty well against Narada, so I think the question becomes if Vengeance is actually powerful enough to fight toe to toe with Narada.
If we include the comics, perhaps Vengeance uses Narada's Borg technology, or a 23rd century knock-off of it? The entire drilling platform did end up in San Francisco bay, and they'd have sensor readings of Narada going back 25 years. Remember the Defiant, Voyager and Delta Flyer, all of which were designed or later retrofitted with Borg-inspired systems which gave them big tactical advantages.

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The Klingon D-7/K'tinga class is the same in "Unexpected" as it is in Deep Space Nine (and although that was apparently a last-minute substitute in ENT, the alternate Klingon ship model looked virtually identical to the D-7 too).
It had similar lines, but I certainly wouldn't call it "virtually identical", any more than I would say the original pre-refit 1701 looked "virtually identical" to the refit 1701, even though they had similar lines as well.

It looks contemporary to me, like a minor variant, but not a ship from an entire century (or two, in the case of TNG) before. The Raptor class we see more closely resembles the TNG Vor'cha class, and D-5 has very similar nacelles to that TNG ship. It's as if a decision was made to NOT backward engineer more primitive Klingon designs but instead create contemporary ones.
It would have been awesome to see a recognizable Klingon ship but with a shiny silver brand new bridge.
I was so hopeful that CBS would have decided to replace the K'tinga with the D4 in that ep when ENT season 1 was released on blu-ray. I should have known better.
I don't think that was ever going to happen, since the producers of the show didn't like the D-4 model and it was the art department (who answer to the producers) and not them who expressed regret over the reuse of the classic Klingon ship.
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Old December 15 2013, 03:05 AM   #274
Avro Arrow
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
It had similar lines, but I certainly wouldn't call it "virtually identical", any more than I would say the original pre-refit 1701 looked "virtually identical" to the refit 1701, even though they had similar lines as well.
It looks contemporary to me, like a minor variant, but not a ship from an entire century (or two, in the case of TNG) before. The Raptor class we see more closely resembles the TNG Vor'cha class, and D-5 has very similar nacelles to that TNG ship. It's as if a decision was made to NOT backward engineer more primitive Klingon designs but instead create contemporary ones.
Nice pics! But I don't know, the differences still strike me personally as more significant than just "minor variant". "Minor variant" to me would be like the differences between the TOS D7 and the Gr'oth in Trials and Tribble-ations. YMMV, of course, but to me the D4 does look less advanced.

I was so hopeful that CBS would have decided to replace the K'tinga with the D4 in that ep when ENT season 1 was released on blu-ray. I should have known better.
I don't think that was ever going to happen, since the producers of the show didn't like the D-4 model and it was the art department (who answer to the producers) and not them who expressed regret over the reuse of the classic Klingon ship.
How much involvement do the show's producers have with the home video releases? And wasn't their "dislike" something minor along the lines of "not enough windows"? I had just hoped someone would have thought that using the K'tinga had been an unfortunate compromise at the time, and since there was a perfectly good retro design available, let's just replace it for the few scenes in that one episode. But you're probably right that that was never going to happen, since it might have cost them a bit of $$$!

I personally "mentally substitute" the D4 design anyway, since I find it unpalatable that the K'tinga exists in the 22nd century, but I know from previous posts that you don't share that view.
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