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Old December 8 2013, 07:33 PM   #256
CaptainAmerica
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The Klingons use the same rusty old D7 battlecruisers and birds of prey in the mid-22nd century as they do in the late 24th. One of those old birds of prey took down the Enterprise-D in Generations. I think Vengeance would stand a much better chance than you think - and that'a not even including he in-universe stats quoted in this thread that give Vengeance more powerful photons than Voyager.
Yes, with its weapons able to penetrate the shields. Don't omit that fact.
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Old December 8 2013, 09:04 PM   #257
publiusr
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Again, the Vengeance era tech is not the same as TOS era tech. That would be outclassed by the Ent-E...not so apparant here.
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Old December 8 2013, 09:07 PM   #258
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

^^True, but that shielded Klingon ship survived Enterprise's phaser blasts easily enough. And don't forget "Yesterday's Enterprise", where 3 birds of prey were more than a match for the -D.
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Old December 8 2013, 09:12 PM   #259
CaptainAmerica
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^^True, but that shielded Klingon ship survived Enterprise's phaser blasts easily enough. And don't forget "Yesterday's Enterprise", where 3 birds of prey were more than a match for the -D.
Yes, the Enterprise D had to sit in one place essentially being a sitting duck to protect Ent-C. No evasive maneuvers, easy for the Klingons.
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Old December 8 2013, 09:30 PM   #260
publiusr
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

And those were kvordts or whatever. They showed a small (Non L-42?) BoP that ran away quickly enough.

For the blu-ray, REL's ship should be the Kvort.
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Old December 9 2013, 05:57 AM   #261
CaptainAmerica
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^^True, but that shielded Klingon ship survived Enterprise's phaser blasts easily enough. And don't forget "Yesterday's Enterprise", where 3 birds of prey were more than a match for the -D.
And I really think you have to say that there was some poor tactics not only in Generations but TNG as a whole. The big E fired what, 1-2 phaser blasts then stopped firing while looking for a way to get an edge on an old beater like that? Shoot the damned thing already. The Galaxy class can launch what, 6-10 torpedoes at once? So why didn't they do that with simultaneous phaser spread?
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Old December 9 2013, 12:30 PM   #262
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Enterprise is the flagship, their crew supposedly the best of the best, and they came up short against a 200-year old Klingon rustbucket (or three) in two timelines. That's not something to be excused or brushed aside, it's direct evidence that ancient ships can more than hold their own in Trek.
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Old December 9 2013, 12:57 PM   #263
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

^ it was a 20 year old BOP that hurt the ENT-D in GEN.

In context it really wasn't a matter of age of the ships. It had more to do with:

IN-UNIVERSE: the weapons (torpedos) of the Duras Sisters being able to pierce the hull of the ENT-D. Adjusting torpedo frequencies to the exact ones of the D's shields, I can swallow. This by extension knocked out the magnetic interlocks for the matter-antimatter chamber and causing a warpcore breach. We never got a scene or dialogue suggesting that the crew "ROTATE SHIELD MODULATION"; ya know like they did against the Borg. Assuming that order was given, Geordi's visor would've still relayed the information to the Duras sisters.

OUT-OF-UNIVERSE: PIS (plot induced stupidity) by Brannon Braga wrote up just to get a scene of the saucer section crashing on Earth. This was the best they could come up with? It was a poorly executed (no pun intended) scene. Listen to the commentary and Braga and Moore admit to A LOT of the convoluted plot points in GEN.
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Old December 9 2013, 05:10 PM   #264
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

So only a few episodes or movies count when comparing how these ships fare in combat? That hardly seems fair.

And yes, the BoP in GENS was 20 years old, but it was pretty much identical in design to the Klingon Bird of Prey (except for shorter wings) seen in Enterprise's era. Trekverse technology has barely moved in the 200+ years of on-screen canon.
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Old December 10 2013, 02:25 PM   #265
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

CaptainAmerica wrote: View Post
The debris did not hurt the hull, it did damage the shields just a bit. And I'm surprised you know the yields of the weapons of both the Scimitar and Vengeance to say that the Scimitar is weaker. It's very likely the E's shields are just that strong.
All we know is on-screen that a piece of space debris can weaken and rock the Enterprise-E's.

And that a mere photon torpedo was sufficient to breach the saucer/bridge module.

CaptainAmerica wrote:
It just seems naive to say that a 300 year old guy, however advanced he is could make a leap in technology that surpasses 24th century tech in any timeline.
It appears you are demonstrating some very selective use of the facts there.

Khan does not possess the knowledge to surpass 24th Century technology off the top of his head, what he did do was he utilised his superior intelligence and ability to learn to help resolve the various technological limitations that starfleet engineers at the time were stumped with. How do you make a phaser/photon torpedo system fire at a much longer range yet remain compact enough to fit on a ship? How do you increase output and efficiency of a phaser pulse beyond that found in a Connie class based on what we understand about phasers? The collaboration of someone like Khan and the best minds of starfleet science lead to the design and construction of a ship exclusively for combat.

CaptainAmerica wrote:
So the Vengeance cripples the JJprise in a sucker punch and suddenly it's 25th century powerful?
A sucker punch would be firing on a ship that was UNSHIELDED. The Enterprise was fully shielded and trying to escape from the Vengeance to return Khan back to earth.

The Vengeance fired phasers at the Enterprise atomising enormous parts of her hull with ease.

The only time I seen any ship do anything like that on a 23rd century ship was a Borg cube on an Excelsior class, in which is a smaller ship than the JJ-prise.


CaptainAmerica wrote:
If you mean the slow moving apparently rocket fueled torpedoes then yes, but she did it with beam phasers. Then the JJprise did it using all her banks, so if that's a good way too keep the phasers off the E-e so it can attack then good call!
The torpedoes the Narada fired were overwhelming in numbers as they split and home in their targets, and they travel at on-screen velocities no worse than the fixed pattern photon/quantum torpedoes that 24th century starfleet were pissing around with.

The JJ-Prise used her forward, port and starboard banks to shoot down what Nero exclaimed "everything" the Narada had.

So even if the Enterprise E fired her maximum spread of 10 torpedoes at a time at the Vengeance, her phasers would have intercepted everything within a second, and then focus her weapons at the Ent-E whilst the latter waits to reload the next volley.

I forgot to mention the weapons probes and the torpedo cannons - it would turn ugly.
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Last edited by anh165; December 10 2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old December 10 2013, 06:24 PM   #266
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

publiusr wrote: View Post

Therefore I might say the TOS Enterprise might actually be Vengeance level thinking, that a more sophisticated pacifist block was moving away from...
I would agree that the Vengeance was a product that need not require UFP committee approval!

You could say the Vengeance cost a whopper to build, her warp/impulse emission levels and its impact on the surroundings would parallel that of a 60's tuned muscle car in an environmentalist conscious world , crew safety, on board living standards,diplomatic and scientific capacity is at the bottom of the league.
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Old December 12 2013, 05:56 PM   #267
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Anyone with half a brain knows how technology works. Computing power alone would give the Enterprise E a much better chance. its like an Alienware vs. a Commodore 64... I am sure science behind the RCS thrusters has improved, THE LCARS COMPUTING INTERFACE, and Im not even sure if Duotronics were invented by the time the vengence was launched. The Enterprise E is FAR superior. So is Voyager. So is the Defiant. The Enterprise E would smite the Uss Vengeance as if it were target practice. Think about it. Targeting systems would be far superior, and let us not forget the massive yeild of the quantum torpedoes. In fact, The Vengeance would be as much as a challenge to the Enterprise E as a maquis raider would be.
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Old December 12 2013, 06:19 PM   #268
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

My phone has a more advanced interface than LCARS.

And again, where is your proof? Shoulds and coulds and assumptions and how you would do it and real life technology does not apply to Star Trek. In Trek, the Klingons use the same ship designs for 225 years and they're still a threat. The Vengeance could be flown by one man. Only the Prometheus (a ship more advanced than the Enterprise-E) has been designed for similar. The Vengeance could beam 75 targets at the same time, which we only saw the likes of in the early 25th century in "All Good Things". And it's 3x faster than an Enterprise which got from Earth to Kronos in a day.
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Old December 12 2013, 09:41 PM   #269
Nob Akimoto
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Daniel, you can't simultaneously claim that scaling means that the JJTrek ships are substantially larger than everything else, yet also claim that the Birds of Prey throughout TNG were the "same ship design" as the ones from ENT. The VFX scaling for the ships shown throughout the first 4 seasons of TNG was clearly a much much larger ship than the ones shown in the movies, or for that matter in ENT.

Also, given that the interiors were also different, along with different names and other designators, the ship being externally similar but internally different isn't out of the question. We see plenty of evidence of that sort of retrofitting being possible throughout the series with various upgrades to bridge modules and internal components.

We also know that from "Relics" that technology progressed sufficiently over the 70 years or so Scotty was in "stasis" that he was basically no longer useful as an engineer on a modern ship. That suggests a level of progress in technology that's substantially faster than anything else.

We also know that a mining ship (a mining ship!) retrofitted with technology from the 2380s can wipe out a fleet of the Federation's "home" ships in the JJverse along with 40+ ships of Klingon "warbird" manufacture. Narada's performance against a whole host of different opponents suggests that Enterprise was lucky not to be blasted to dust by her, and it was a combination of internal sabotage and the use of something like Jellyfish (also a 2380s design) that kept that final sequence in ST09 plausible.
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Old December 12 2013, 10:12 PM   #270
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Klingon D-7/K'tinga class is the same in "Unexpected" as it is in Deep Space Nine (and although that was apparently a last-minute substitute in ENT, the alternate Klingon ship model looked virtually identical to the D-7 too). Yes there were some larger Bird of Prey type ships in TNG, but the type seen in "Rascals" (identified as a K'vort) and GENS (D-12) are both the small 12-man version, and despite strange circumstances both were able to subdue the Starfleet flagship. And as for interior sets, with the exception of STIII all Klingon ships sets have the same layout, aesthetic and computer graphics across the generations. I cite them as Trek's worst example of a species that hasn't changed their technology throughout the franchise - due to a combination of endlessly recycled costumes, models and sets (admittedly understandable due to budgetary constraints) regardless of which era the stories were set in.
Some novels have suggested that the Klingons took their ships and technology from their former slavers, which IMO makes a lot of sense considering how little what we've seen of Klingon lifestyle and culture is conducive to technological advancement.

And remember, I'm arguing that the Vengeance stands a better chance because she was built in the aftermath of Narada's rampage in a heavily contaminated timeline. This isn't the old Enterprise versus the Enterprise-E, it's the bastard child of a militarized Starfleet that's been exposed to future technology and put on a more aggressive path for a quarter century.
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