RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 145,350
Posts: 5,722,832
Members: 25,773
Currently online: 394
Newest member: NeXTLoop

TrekToday headlines

Where No Garden Gnome Has Gone Before
By: T'Bonz on May 22

Scotland Yard Trekkie Fear
By: T'Bonz on May 22

Koenig Joins Captain Pike Project
By: T'Bonz on May 22

Retro Review: Ex Post Facto
By: Michelle on May 22

Smallwood: Creating The Xindi
By: T'Bonz on May 21

Greenwood Joins O.J. Simpson Series
By: T'Bonz on May 21

The USS Enterprise Building
By: T'Bonz on May 20

Wheaton Guests On Mission Log Podcast
By: T'Bonz on May 20

Pegg: Star Trek 3 Less Trek-Y
By: T'Bonz on May 20

Two Trek Book Covers Unveiled
By: T'Bonz on May 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 3 2013, 11:31 PM   #241
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: Montgomery County, State of Maryland
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
Bad Robots are dumb@$$es. They are little kids that want to uber everything. <SNIP> Yeah, Bad robot is full of immature power envy fanboys.
This is a completely mature and proportional response to someone making a movie with a ship you don't like.

__________________
Democratic socialism is the hope of human freedom.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 10:24 PM   #242
CaptainAmerica
Ensign
 
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

No one has a problem with the Vengeance firing phasers while at warp? It's been established (not in the JJverse though) that phasers whether beams or burst fire do not fire FTL, which is why my first thought that the phaser arcs that hit the Enterprise were not a feature of the design but the energy falling behind and the Vengeance had to adjust for this. Of course later shots did fire straight.

As far as torpedoes being avoidable, the Vengeance didn't seem to be too light on her feet so it seems that a spread of quantum torpedoes would almost certainly hit, especially given the large surface area to work with.

Enterprise-e survived multiple torpedo and disruptor hits before losing her shields, and of course there's no way to be certain but the Reman/Romulan weapons were at least as powerful if not more than the Vengeance weapons.
CaptainAmerica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 10:27 PM   #243
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

TOS and Voyager fired their phasers at warp all the time. As far as I know, the only thing that says they can't is the TNG Technical Manual, which was flat-out wrong in that instance.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 10:38 PM   #244
CaptainAmerica
Ensign
 
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Can I get an episode name(s)? I wasn't a voyager fan, and trust nothing done in TOS. TOS continuity was a disaster at best.
CaptainAmerica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 11:03 PM   #245
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

"Basics" comes to mind, with Voyager constantly swatting away Kazon ships with phasers while at warp. And just now Enterprise's "Shockwave" comes to mind, showing Suliban pods hammering the NX-01 with phaser fire at warp.

I can't think of any canon mentions of phasers not functioning at warp, beyond something about the targeting sensors during ENT's first season (and even then, Malcolm said he'd have it fixed shortly)
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 11:21 PM   #246
CaptainAmerica
Ensign
 
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Now that is an excellent point with the Suliban. I hadn't considered that at all. Are we only limited to using on screen examples, or can we assume that what we've seen in continuity on all episodes should be considered as a basis for what armaments the Enterprise-E should have? That being the case, then since Nemesis occurred after the last episode of Voyager then it would make sense that after the refit she got after her beating from the Scimitar Starfleet loaded her with Transphasic torpedoes. And that is self explanatory I'd think.
CaptainAmerica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 11:47 PM   #247
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

I see it as the Enterprise-E we saw in FC, INS and NEM without anything extra.

But no doubt, the "Endgame"-modded Voyager would smite the Vengeance with a single shot.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5 2013, 12:54 AM   #248
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

CaptainAmerica wrote: View Post
Can I get an episode name(s)? I wasn't a voyager fan, and trust nothing done in TOS. TOS continuity was a disaster at best.
I thought once TOS got it altogether, it was astonishingly consistent continuity-wise (for it's time). It has a few contradictions in the very beginning with what we all accept Star Trek mythology to be now, to be sure. But once the terminology was finally nailed down, probably about two-thirds the way through the first season, then they stayed pretty consistent with it, didn't they?
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5 2013, 04:51 PM   #249
anh165
Commander
 
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

CaptainAmerica wrote: View Post
As far as torpedoes being avoidable, the Vengeance didn't seem to be too light on her feet so it seems that a spread of quantum torpedoes would almost certainly hit, especially given the large surface area to work with.
It wouldn't need to evade torpedoes, it simply would shoot them down before impact.

Even the Kelvin demonstrated some resilience against the splitting torpedoes from the Narada.


CaptainAmerica wrote:
Enterprise-e survived multiple torpedo and disruptor hits before losing her shields, and of course there's no way to be certain but the Reman/Romulan weapons were at least as powerful if not more than the Vengeance weapons.
If the Scimitar's weapons were as powerful as the Vengeance, it would have blown off a significant chunk out of the Ent-E saucer. Instead, the Ent-E shields were weakened and only the front of the bridge breached from incoming torpedo fire.

Hull strength and resistance to fire seems to have not significantly improved in the 24th century, the Enterprise D was in-salvageable after crash landing.

The Enterprise E shields seemed in-effective against physical contact with space debris in that battle against the Scimitar also.
__________________
No animals were harmed during posting ...
anh165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5 2013, 05:13 PM   #250
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Warp core: It crashed into a city and the core didn't breach. The Enterprise-D's core breached at least once per season.
Yes, but this is a sort of TOS era film. Ships didn't have warpcore breaches in that era, probably because they were built better.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5 2013, 10:02 PM   #251
CaptainAmerica
Ensign
 
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

anh165 wrote: View Post
CaptainAmerica wrote: View Post
As far as torpedoes being avoidable, the Vengeance didn't seem to be too light on her feet so it seems that a spread of quantum torpedoes would almost certainly hit, especially given the large surface area to work with.
It wouldn't need to evade torpedoes, it simply would shoot them down before impact.

Even the Kelvin demonstrated some resilience against the splitting torpedoes from the Narada.

If you mean the slow moving apparently rocket fueled torpedoes then yes, but she did it with beam phasers. Then the JJprise did it using all her banks, so if that's a good way too keep the phasers off the E-e so it can attack then good call!
CaptainAmerica wrote:
Enterprise-e survived multiple torpedo and disruptor hits before losing her shields, and of course there's no way to be certain but the Reman/Romulan weapons were at least as powerful if not more than the Vengeance weapons.
If the Scimitar's weapons were as powerful as the Vengeance, it would have blown off a significant chunk out of the Ent-E saucer. Instead, the Ent-E shields were weakened and only the front of the bridge breached from incoming torpedo fire.

Hull strength and resistance to fire seems to have not significantly improved in the 24th century, the Enterprise D was in-salvageable after crash landing.

The Enterprise E shields seemed in-effective against physical contact with space debris in that battle against the Scimitar also.
The debris did not hurt the hull, it did damage the shields just a bit. And I'm surprised you know the yields of the weapons of both the Scimitar and Vengeance to say that the Scimitar is weaker. It's very likely the E's shields are just that strong.

It just seems naive to say that a 300 year old guy, however advanced he is could make a leap in technology that surpasses 24th century tech in any timeline.

So the Vengeance cripples the JJprise in a sucker punch and suddenly it's 25th century powerful?
CaptainAmerica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5 2013, 10:10 PM   #252
CaptainAmerica
Ensign
 
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

If you mean the slow moving apparently rocket fueled torpedoes then yes, but she did it with beam phasers. Then the JJprise did it using all her banks, so if that's a good way too keep the phasers off the E-e so it can attack then good call!
CaptainAmerica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 10:34 PM   #253
publiusr
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
drt wrote: View Post
Back to the topic of the thread... the different iterations of Trek have always been inconsistent. Based on on-screen evidence, the original TOS Enterprise seems substantially more powerful than the ships from the TNG-era or JJ-era. It only took a couple of phaser shots to kill everyone on Excalibur in "The Ultimate Computer" or completely obliterate a Klingon cruiser in "Day of the Dove".
I've often thought this as well. I first noticed it in TWOK (Weapons were not used on other ships in TMP). Phasers and Photon Torpedoes seemed super weak when compared to TOS levels. Even against unshielded ships.

I've discussed this on other forums and others pointed out to me that it probably wasn't that the weapons were weaker, but the ships, shields, SIF and the hulls were much stronger on the newer ships and could take more punishment. I like this explanation much better and it makes more sense logically.
I think an arguement could be still be made that ships got weaker after TOS if you go by on screen evidence.

The TOS is a B-52. Very powerful.
TMP--Excelsior are B-2 type sophistication

I tend to think the lower dome of the TOS is a huge dilithium crystal--capable of focusing power from any point on its surface.

The pulse phasers are a bit weaker in the refit--but cover better. Excelsior even more so.

Ent-D is an explorer--maybe greater overall power-but greener tech.

TOS and TMP is the Norad era of Trek.

Today we are looking at hypersonic missiles, but the old B-52's skybolt is more potent even if less advanced.

Therefore I might say the TOS Enterprise might actually be Vengeance level thinking, that a more sophisticated pacifist block was moving away from...
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 04:38 PM   #254
Mycroft Maxwell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Mycroft Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee USA
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

An F-22 would smite a hole fleet of B-52s, migs and what else you got , and thats just a few decades of tech. WE ARE TALKING 100 YEARS!!!

And those werent Torpedoes the narada was firing, those were some sort of damn astroid busting tools for mining. Dont forget the narada was a MINING VESSEL. Id imagine any ship could shoot down a few mining tools. You people know how outrageous you sound? Do you guys not forget the tensions between Federation and Romulans? Hell yeah they still be making ships more powerful. Then theres the increased tensions with the klingons, that first cardassian war, the dominion threat, the borg threat. You can freakin gaurentee that starfleet has kept its ships defense capablilities up to par with its war bent neighbors.

As for that whole colllision thing, you have forgotten that the enterprise E's shield were already severly weakened by the Scimitar, before crashing into a piece of large debris that DID NOT damage the enterprise. If you look it was a shield impact.

so I will say again, USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-E WOULD not only beat the Vegeance, hell it would probably one shot it with a photon torpedo....remember the Nth Degree, and Q who where if too close to the target, the enterprise D could be destroyed by its own, single photon torpedo deonation?
Mycroft Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 05:59 PM   #255
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Klingons use the same rusty old D7 battlecruisers and birds of prey in the mid-22nd century as they do in the late 24th. One of those old birds of prey took down the Enterprise-D in Generations. I think Vengeance would stand a much better chance than you think - and that'a not even including he in-universe stats quoted in this thread that give Vengeance more powerful photons than Voyager.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.