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Old October 19 2013, 11:15 PM   #151
Mycroft Maxwell
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

^Which is more BS specs the producers did to uber their unrealistic crapfest of technology.

Lets go back and say the NX-04 Discovery had 500, 999 Isoton Photonic Torpedoes. And had quadruple layered ablative hull armor. I can do that, only difference is, i dont work for paramount so it dont get publicized.
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Old October 20 2013, 09:45 PM   #152
NeedleOfInquiry
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
^Which is more BS specs the producers did to uber their unrealistic crapfest of technology.

Lets go back and say the NX-04 Discovery had 500, 999 Isoton Photonic Torpedoes. And had quadruple layered ablative hull armor. I can do that, only difference is, i dont work for paramount so it dont get publicized.
It may be B.S, but it's Canon B.S.

And it's not the same as giving the Nx-04 ablative armor, because the Nx-04 existed in the primeverse BEFORE the incursion. After the JJverse split off from the primeverse, anything is possible.
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Old October 20 2013, 09:51 PM   #153
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: View Post
Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
Remember "In a mirror, darkly?"

the USS Defiant is taken through to the mirror universe about 100 years in the past and demolishes everything.

And in the mirror universe, starfleet is a military organisation, the NX class is a warship and the defiant crushes it in about 10 seconds

same would apply here, quantum torpedoes would probably one shot the vengance.
Finally, A good example of what I was talking about. Remember the USS Defiant (constitution class) was an explorer just like the Uss Enterprise Ncc-1701. And It pwned every warship of the Mirror Universe the century before. Now take into account that the Enterprise-E herself was actually built f or battle, I am sure the Enterprise E would not only beat the Vengence, but do it without taking any damage what so ever.
I seriously doubt that. Again, The Vengeance has 320 isoton torpedoes. And if the phasers are even half as impressive, it's going to scrape some paint off the big E's hull.
And I doubt that. 100+ years of shield advancements and preparation for the Dominion War should be enough IMO to keep Vengeance at bay.
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Old October 20 2013, 10:38 PM   #154
NeedleOfInquiry
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: View Post
Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
Finally, A good example of what I was talking about. Remember the USS Defiant (constitution class) was an explorer just like the Uss Enterprise Ncc-1701. And It pwned every warship of the Mirror Universe the century before. Now take into account that the Enterprise-E herself was actually built f or battle, I am sure the Enterprise E would not only beat the Vengence, but do it without taking any damage what so ever.
I seriously doubt that. Again, The Vengeance has 320 isoton torpedoes. And if the phasers are even half as impressive, it's going to scrape some paint off the big E's hull.
And I doubt that. 100+ years of shield advancements and preparation for the Dominion War should be enough IMO to keep Vengeance at bay.
We can no longer say that the E-E is "100 years more advanced." We have little idea how far technology has come in the JJverse.

Here's what we do know:

The Vengeance has superior torpedoes to Voyager, a 24th century vessel

JJverse ships appear to have some form of transwarp drive, which would explain the new "warp tunnel" effect, and account for the increased speed starfleet vessels now posses

The Vengeance, presumably, has Transwarp beaming

The Vengeance can survive, with catastrophic damage, an internal detonation of 72 photon torpedoes

The Vengeance utilizes pulse phasers, which can "arc" towards it's target, a technology that has yet to be seen in the 24th century IIRC

Based on feats alone, the Vengeance would seem to have late 24th century equivalent technology. At minimum.
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Old October 21 2013, 02:08 AM   #155
Mycroft Maxwell
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

No, here's what we do know. The writers and producers don't know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to relating technologies. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have a ship more powerful than a LATE 24TH CENTURY WARSHIP. NO WAY IN HELL. It only shows the stupidity and lack of intelligence of the people in charge.

Lets see people working with that Radio Tube, warehouse sized calculator and reverse engineer a Windows 7 Dell Inspiron 560 and see how long it takes them to reverse engineer it. They wouldn't know where to begin.
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Old October 21 2013, 05:59 PM   #156
Captain Jed R.
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Whether or not it is can't be determined. It might "canonically" be more powerful if you take whatever numbers the producers come out with but frankly, the Abramsverse has entirely different conventions and "rules" to regular Trek so it's not necessarily helpful to compare.

I mean, we're talking about a universe where suddenly every ship is huge (and look at comparative size charts for Kelvin compared to 24th Century ships - from Kelvin onwards, everything's huge), where suddenly starships have turrets that fire pulse weapons instead of emitters that fire beams, where a phaser barrage from the Enterprise isn't a beam but a hail of red bolts of energy, where hand phasers shoot rapid fire bolts not beams, where ships can go at ludicrous speeds and suddenly warp speed is a time vortex. The people designing the JJVerse have given it totally different design rules, totally different narrative rules, totally different s-f tech rules. Try to compare one to the other, you might as well say "Star Destroyer vs Enterprise" for all the comparative stuff you can do.

For my money, no way is 23rd Century - even altered 23rd Century - equal to 24th Century. Totally different scales of tech, far better shields, superior computers, superior speed. If JJVerse still in any way follows the rules of 23rd Century tech, those things should be consistent even if they have updated (and realistically, they didn't update that much - Narada still owned the entire seven ship fleet and battered Enterprise even after the Kelvin scans and reverse-engineering).
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Old October 21 2013, 09:41 PM   #157
NeedleOfInquiry
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
No, here's what we do know. The writers and producers don't know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to relating technologies. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have a ship more powerful than a LATE 24TH CENTURY WARSHIP. NO WAY IN HELL. It only shows the stupidity and lack of intelligence of the people in charge.

Lets see people working with that Radio Tube, warehouse sized calculator and reverse engineer a Windows 7 Dell Inspiron 560 and see how long it takes them to reverse engineer it. They wouldn't know where to begin.
You personal feeling regarding the intelligence of the writers, are irrelevant to this discussion. Based on undeniable onscreen evidence, the JJverse has equal or superior technology to the 24th century, in many respects.

(and realistically, they didn't update that much - Narada still owned the entire seven ship fleet and battered Enterprise even after the Kelvin scans and reverse-engineering).
Whether you accept the countdown comics explanation or not, it's clear that the Narada was no ordinary mining ship. Not unless the Romulans were in the habit of building 5 mile long Eldritch Abominations. Therefore, any attempts to use the Narada as a basis for comparison, are fruitless.
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Old October 21 2013, 09:46 PM   #158
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Visually speaking, the JJ-verse is more advanced than the similar Prime universe.
TOS wise, Pine's Kirk is about the age where he would be on the Republic.

This tells me that Vengeance--and all the rest of the ships are larger and more powerful than they should otherwise be. So I think it would be close, and the Ent-E might have surprises, but I think Vengeance has it beat.
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Old October 22 2013, 05:44 AM   #159
Captain Jed R.
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

We should also consider the effect budget has on all this: the Abramsverse films arguably have a far bigger budget than Trek has had in the past. This makes things look more expensive and more hi-tech without them necessarily being more advanced "in universe".
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Old October 23 2013, 07:39 PM   #160
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Except that we already have technical specs that are telling us these new ships are that much more advanced.


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There's a line from Terminator 2 that really resonates whenever I read topics like this. Miles Dyson on the T-800 arm and chip. It's something I could imagine a SF engineer saying.

"It was scary stuff, radically advanced. It was smashed... it didn't work. But it gave us ideas. It took us in new directions... things we would never have thought of."


I honestly don't see why people are so hung up on the notion that the JJ Verse ships are immensely more powerful than anything we've seen before.

The Kelvin incident didn't just destroy a Federation starship. It saw a fleet of Klingon ships taking the Narada into custody, no doubt using bits of it for their own technological advancements (which would lead to affects throughout the alpha and beta quadrant over the following decades as Klingons employed more advanced warships.)

The incursion resulted in UFP seemingly making first contact with dozens of races much sooner than before, including the Cardassians and the implications that the Federation has at some point reopened communications with Romulous. All of these changes would change so many things in unpredictable ways.

The core of it all: highly advanced technology from the late 24th Century has just landed in the hands of the two major powers of the 23rd century. Even sensor scans would effect things dramatically in the following twenty+ years.
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Old October 23 2013, 07:44 PM   #161
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Spock likely got whatever scans he could from the Jellyfish, since it was voice imprinted to him, it would literally hand him it's schematics.
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Old October 23 2013, 08:04 PM   #162
R. Star
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Apparently Nero's appearance also did away with reasoning skills like... not putting a cadet in command of a starship.
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Old October 23 2013, 08:20 PM   #163
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
^Which is more BS specs the producers did to uber their unrealistic crapfest of technology.

Lets go back and say the NX-04 Discovery had 500, 999 Isoton Photonic Torpedoes. And had quadruple layered ablative hull armor. I can do that, only difference is, i dont work for paramount so it dont get publicized.
Oh come on. It's on-screen (albeit requiring HD and zooming-in) so it's canon, whether you like it or not.

Vengeance also has transporters that can move 72+ targets at once, something we haven't seen outside of the alt-future of "All Good Things". It's obvious technology has evolved differently to Trek-Prime's 2260's.
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Old October 23 2013, 08:29 PM   #164
Captain Jed R.
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Apparently Nero's appearance also did away with reasoning skills like... not putting a cadet in command of a starship.
And also, apparently, not having a meeting in a room with big glass windows and not much security, and having it actually be standard procedure to always meet in that room under a given set of circumstances regardless of whether your enemy would know your protocol to do exactly that. But the common sense of Starfleet isn't at issue in this debate.

See it's problems like Abramsverse tech specs and Abramsverse size specs (urgh) and the whole design aesthetic really that help put me off the Abramsverse products. It's just too inconsistent, from start to finish, with everything done before, without any rhyme or reason. And before anyone points out the alternate reality explanation, I mean aesthetically Trek always had a certain style. It evolved, but it was always that style. Now it's changed to a drastically different aesthetic (with a hardon for gigantic ships for some reason), and for no good reason story wise (I'm aware they don't need one and I'm a sad old fart of a 22 year old for caring). At the very least, before doing the crap new aesthetic, they could have had the Kelvin be a consistent part of the Enterprise-TOS progression, instead of a part of this bloody crazy - sorry, different but valid - new aesthetic.
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Old October 23 2013, 08:30 PM   #165
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Apparently Nero's appearance also did away with reasoning skills like... not putting a cadet in command of a starship.
A lieutenant, as most people keep forgetting. He was a few weeks away from graduating the full command course of the Academy after the administrative hearing on the KM test. Which McCoy said would go in his favour as it did in the Prime universe.

And Pike granted him the field promotion, and I trust Pike's judgement in the movies even if Kirk's seems shakey at times. Starfleet obviously saw the virtue in formalising that promotion.

And am I wrong but did this "cadet" not save the ship, the planet and the day twice? yeah I think a lot of those "seasoned captains" being charred bodies in space speaks volumes for letting them age and become too settled.
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