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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 6 2014, 07:37 PM   #106
The Wormhole
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
If said arc can also be sprinkled with a bit of existing Trek lore on the way then they do that, if it can't then they don't try and shoehorn it in.
Khan seemed to be shoehorned in, especially given he was originally written as a new character and then made Khan afterwards.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:33 AM   #107
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

I'm not going to dig through the whole thread and will just answer the title. Are we forgetting Spock is a great character? Shit....Spock's been given all of Kirk's Badassness, while Kirk has been reduced largely to comic relief, running away, saying "GOGOGOGOGO BEAMUSUPBEAMUSUPBEAMUSUP" and getting beat up on an Archer-level. Even his sacrifice is half-suicide.

Who outwits Khan? Who can hold his own with Khan? Who can be beamed up at the last second without freaking out at his own impending doom? When he's about to die who DOESN'T say "I'm afraid". Who gets the girl?

Mind you I enjoyed both movies, but feel Kirk had been given a large disservice.

edit: To reduce the flamage I'm about to receive, let me say that one Pro (as opposed to con) to what I mentioned is that at no point have I ever felt that Pine was doing a Shatner impression. No, I'm not being sarcastic.

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Old January 9 2014, 12:02 AM   #108
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

I wouldn't say that he's ever doing an impression, per se, but I do think he tried to channel a bit of Shatner in a few places, such as when he walks onto the bridge at the very end of ST09.
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Old January 9 2014, 04:10 AM   #109
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I'm not going to dig through the whole thread and will just answer the title. Are we forgetting Spock is a great character? Shit....Spock's been given all of Kirk's Badassness, while Kirk has been reduced largely to comic relief, running away, saying "GOGOGOGOGO BEAMUSUPBEAMUSUPBEAMUSUP" and getting beat up on an Archer-level. Even his sacrifice is half-suicide.

Who outwits Khan? Who can hold his own with Khan? Who can be beamed up at the last second without freaking out at his own impending doom? When he's about to die who DOESN'T say "I'm afraid". Who gets the girl?

Mind you I enjoyed both movies, but feel Kirk had been given a large disservice.

edit: To reduce the flamage I'm about to receive, let me say that one Pro (as opposed to con) to what I mentioned is that at no point have I ever felt that Pine was doing a Shatner impression. No, I'm not being sarcastic.
The most telling moment was in the 2009 film where he encounters an ice monster and then runs away screaming like a little girl. I can't remember Prime Kirk ever doing that, aside from moments where he experiences pain like in "The Man Trap". It just felt off. Maybe playing Kirk more like a joke was a way to counter the way he was depicted on the show where he was this unflappable heroic leading lady killer, and the way they do it in nuTrek feels like intentional parody. It's this strange condescending attitude towards Kirk, and we get that from other characters who roll their eyes at Kirk almost more often than they do respect him.

I do hope that for the next film they treat the character a little more seriously, and present him more heroically. You can still do humorous moments with Kirk, but not in a way to make fun of him "hey ladies, Jim Kirk!". I'd love to see Kirk save the day in a way Spock did in STID with his brains, rather than just being a brute by kicking something in the warp core. Kirk was said to be a genius by Pike, I'd like to see more of that. And most importantly, I want to see more respect and admiration for him by other characters, and zero condescension, especially by Uhura.
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Old January 9 2014, 04:34 AM   #110
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I'm not going to dig through the whole thread and will just answer the title. Are we forgetting Spock is a great character? Shit....Spock's been given all of Kirk's Badassness, while Kirk has been reduced largely to comic relief, running away, saying "GOGOGOGOGO BEAMUSUPBEAMUSUPBEAMUSUP" and getting beat up on an Archer-level. Even his sacrifice is half-suicide.

Who outwits Khan? Who can hold his own with Khan? Who can be beamed up at the last second without freaking out at his own impending doom? When he's about to die who DOESN'T say "I'm afraid". Who gets the girl?

Mind you I enjoyed both movies, but feel Kirk had been given a large disservice.
To be honest, the Abrams series is doing a disservice to most of the TOS characters. Aside from Kirk and Spock, McCoy is essentially shafted, Scotty has been turned into comic relief, and Chekov is now one note with the v/w reversal. Sulu is pretty much the same as he was in TOS, and Uhura is one character who has been improved in the Abrams series.
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Old January 9 2014, 09:01 AM   #111
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I'm not going to dig through the whole thread and will just answer the title. Are we forgetting Spock is a great character? Shit....Spock's been given all of Kirk's Badassness, while Kirk has been reduced largely to comic relief, running away, saying "GOGOGOGOGO BEAMUSUPBEAMUSUPBEAMUSUP" and getting beat up on an Archer-level. Even his sacrifice is half-suicide.

Who outwits Khan? Who can hold his own with Khan? Who can be beamed up at the last second without freaking out at his own impending doom? When he's about to die who DOESN'T say "I'm afraid". Who gets the girl?
The most telling moment was in the 2009 film where he encounters an ice monster and then runs away screaming like a little girl. I can't remember Prime Kirk ever doing that, aside from moments where he experiences pain like in "The Man Trap". It just felt off. Maybe playing Kirk more like a joke was a way to counter the way he was depicted on the show where he was this unflappable heroic leading lady killer, and the way they do it in nuTrek feels like intentional parody. It's this strange condescending attitude towards Kirk, and we get that from other characters who roll their eyes at Kirk almost more often than they do respect him.

I do hope that for the next film they treat the character a little more seriously, and present him more heroically. You can still do humorous moments with Kirk, but not in a way to make fun of him "hey ladies, Jim Kirk!". I'd love to see Kirk save the day in a way Spock did in STID with his brains, rather than just being a brute by kicking something in the warp core. Kirk was said to be a genius by Pike, I'd like to see more of that. And most importantly, I want to see more respect and admiration for him by other characters, and zero condescension, especially by Uhura.
The above descriptions reminded me of a typical episode of Scooby-Doo, where nuKirk=Shaggy. NuSpock would be Daphne's boyfriend, nuUhura = Daphne, and I guess nuCarol would be Velma. That leave nuMcCoy to be Scooby, since all he does is act like a buffoon.

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
To be honest, the Abrams series is doing a disservice to most of the TOS characters. Aside from Kirk and Spock, McCoy is essentially shafted, Scotty has been turned into comic relief, and Chekov is now one note with the v/w reversal. Sulu is pretty much the same as he was in TOS, and Uhura is one character who has been improved in the Abrams series.
Original Uhura never told Original Kirk to shut up while she bitched and whined at her boyfriend while on duty.
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Old January 9 2014, 09:13 AM   #112
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Original Uhura never told Original Kirk to shut up while she bitched and whined at her boyfriend while on duty.
nuKirk whined way more .
You can't expect respect if you don't give respect.
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Old January 9 2014, 09:19 AM   #113
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
To be honest, the Abrams series is doing a disservice to most of the TOS characters. Aside from Kirk and Spock, McCoy is essentially shafted, Scotty has been turned into comic relief, and Chekov is now one note with the v/w reversal. Sulu is pretty much the same as he was in TOS, and Uhura is one character who has been improved in the Abrams series.
Scotty was often comic relief in TOS - he once attempted to defeat an invading force by drinking his counterpart under the table, and once started a bar fight over an insult to the Enterprise. Poor Chekov has never ever been more than his V's and W's.

Sulu and Uhura never got scenes as good as the warning to Harrison and the Klingon negotiation in TOS, short as they were.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:50 AM   #114
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote:
And in two packed screenings, I did not hear a single sound that remotely hinted at laughter or any other derogatory thought.
Other than silent, stunned disbelief.
I saw ST II about ten times in its theatrical run. No one laughed, but a few years later, after all the new rounds of send-ups of the Shatner Acting Method had brought the absurdity to a new level of consciousness, retro rescreenings did produce laughter.
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Old January 9 2014, 04:50 PM   #115
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

The logical resolution for Kirk would have been to leave him dead, and the creators apologize* creating a universe that doesn't respect his attributes (original thinking...etc...).

Ever have a job that where your boss is a guy who used to be your peer...so you only see him as your boss "technically"? That's Kirk. And yes, that's exactly what happened in the two movies. But it's still a jarring experience to see Spock as the guy who truly commands by respect, while Kirk has to use meth levels of energy and a billion "trust me!"

*And I don't mean apologize in the a sense that they owe the viewers an apology. I mean that they wrote Kirk into a corner.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:07 PM   #116
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say that he's ever doing an impression, per se, but I do think he tried to channel a bit of Shatner in a few places, such as when he walks onto the bridge at the very end of ST09.
He does look quite a bit like Shatner did when he sits in the chair and Spock volunteers for the Qonos mission in STID.
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Old January 10 2014, 03:39 AM   #117
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

I actually get more of a Kirk vibe than a Shatner vibe, if that makes sense. There's that moment where Spock offers to assist Kirk after making the announcement that he intends to arrest "Harrison". That moment was one of the few times that he really felt more in line with the Kirk from TOS, and Pine did it without having to mimic Shatner. It's moments like that that prove to me that Pine was a great casting choice, and that I wish they would move past the Frat Boy characterization. If the writers reverts him back to that AGAIN in the third film, I'm done with this film series. STID got more leeway because I thought it did a better job at "Kirk must grow into a commander" than what ST09 did, so I was okay with the second film repeating the same story arc from the first. But it should never be repeated again. Reminds me of a quote "The first time is happenstance. The second is coincidence. The third is enemy action".
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Old January 10 2014, 03:53 AM   #118
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
To be honest, the Abrams series is doing a disservice to most of the TOS characters. Aside from Kirk and Spock, McCoy is essentially shafted, Scotty has been turned into comic relief, and Chekov is now one note with the v/w reversal. Sulu is pretty much the same as he was in TOS, and Uhura is one character who has been improved in the Abrams series.
Scotty was often comic relief in TOS - he once attempted to defeat an invading force by drinking his counterpart under the table, and once started a bar fight over an insult to the Enterprise. Poor Chekov has never ever been more than his V's and W's.
TOS Scotty was a serious character who was frequently funny. When I think of TOS Scotty, I think of a futuristic grease-monkey who is unhealthily dedicated to his job at which he is an expert and enjoys a good drink. When I think of Abrams Scotty I think of a clown with a comedic sidekick.

TOS never really dwelled on Chekov's V/W reversal, with the exception of Trek IV, and that's mainly why the "nuclear wessel" line is so memorable. The Abrams movies, especially XI dwell only on the V/W reversal to the point that I think he is intentionally given V and W sounds in every line just so we can hear them reversed.
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Old January 10 2014, 04:14 AM   #119
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
TOS Scotty was a serious character who was frequently funny. When I think of TOS Scotty, I think of a futuristic grease-monkey who is unhealthily dedicated to his job at which he is an expert and enjoys a good drink. When I think of Abrams Scotty I think of a clown with a comedic sidekick.
The TOS characters were meant to be believably part of a futuristic space Navy. Doohan brought a lot of military bearing to Scotty, which was why he was always very convincing when asked to take over the big chair.

The AbramsTrek characters are meant to exploit popular memory of the TOS characters, believability is not at issue. Simon Pegg's Scotty is there to be "the miracle-worker" and say "I'm givin' 'er all she's got Cap'n!" and that's about it.
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Old January 10 2014, 07:05 PM   #120
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Scotty did save the ship in both movies - by coming up with and executing the core eject plan, and by disabling the Vengeance just as they were about to deliver the killing blow. What I remember most about him from ID was his plea to Kirk not to use the new torpedoes.

Chekov saved Kirk and Sulu in the first movie. If anything, he's been pushed as smarter and more versatile than Chekov Prime, being a child prodigy who can use the transporter better than the people who are supposed to, and although he was clearly struggling , he managed to take over as chief engineer.

Considering these are 2-hour movies, the characters need to be more colourful and immediate to have any impact. A group of serious soldiers in space reciting orders would be rather dull.
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